Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin • Hacker News Board

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#21

Post by ivanhoe » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #7

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. (Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is. Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources. Word has it that you can find their desce…

They certainly didn't treat other humans anything different. In those days "us" meant the tribe or family group. Everyone else was "them", sometimes an ally, sometimes a foe, depending on the situation, resource scarcity and the power of both sides. And those were the violent times, so when there was no enough food for everyone, competition (whether it's human, neanderthal or animal) had to be either scared away or destroyed. That's how all creatures in nature function, it's a matter of survival, there's nothing unethical about that.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#22

Post by titzer » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> research suggests that there was interbreeding between Sapiens and Neanderthals.

Yes, this very clearly established with genetic studies now. Caucasians have around 1.5% to 2% Neanderthal DNA.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#23

Post by Juliate » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:31 PM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #17

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> I never understood why most people assume that humans today are, on average, more intelligent than our ancestors 40,000 years ago. Evolution of our species continues and some changes in our anatomy are being observed even in the last 100 years of our history. The evolutionary pressure never stopped, it just changed its form. We are no longer competing with nature, we are competing with ourselves, adjusting our diet…

> our society, our language are much more sophisticated, our abstract thinking and creativity have advanced,

Can we be so sure? Our tools have evolved and become more sophisticated thanks for our industry for sure, but that says nothing of intelligence per se.

How much more or less sophisticated and creative were humans only 150/200 years ago? Yet, technologically... things have moved quite a bit. Technology that has built upon a lot of precedents.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#24

Post by cletus » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

Two things spring to mind:

The first is that how we think is deeply intertwined with language. There's tons of evidence of this, not the least of which is Helen Keller's description of her world before she learned language. We'll probably never know what language existed 50,000+ years ago, how sophisticated or simple it was and how it affected how our ancestors thought.

The second is the evidence we have from the ancient world, which was a mere 2,000 years ago. We have written records going back another 3,000-4,000 years before that. I find this period fascinating for many reasons but a big one is how alien we would find the ethics and how societies worked. So would we even be able to relate to Homo Sapiens (or Neanderthals for that matter).

Some things we'd be able to related to (eg the earliest burial rites we've found evidence were from ~75,000 years ago) but I imagine a lot we simply couldn't.

Some Neanderthal DNA exists in the modern gene pool. That itself raises many questions. Was this violent? How was it viewed? Were these people viewed the same? How dominant were large family/tribal groups?

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#25

Post by wefarrell » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

Modern adult humans would absolutely score higher on all tests of human intelligence that we use today. We're not smarter, intelligence is context specific and it's not possible to objectively compare two brains that developed to survive in vastly different worlds.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#26

Post by ivanhoe » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #19

mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it possible that humans simply outbred them? You don't have to "get rid" of a population if you can interbreed and outbreed a given stock, no? It's not like one day they exist and the next they don't; rather, they slowly get absorbed into the larger, faster breeding pop. Or even disease they had no natural immunity for. I presume there would be some conflict as even among human pops conflict is a given --but no…

It's possible. It's just one of those explanations that we'd really love to believe, since the alternative is so unthinkable. It's been a hobby of mine to be skeptical of it. Even Kurzgesagt mentioned in passing that we're not sure if it was due to "a series of minor genocides." - https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o?t=79 - https://youtu.be/CWu29PRCUvQ?t=165 If anyone knows of breadcrumbs to follow, please chime in. Genetic…

Neanderthals and humans co-existed for some 5,000 years. Think of that in terms of our modern history, and how many ethnical groups was there in that time span - and almost all of them perished completely, either destroyed or assimilated by others (usually a combination of both). Thinking of it, neanderthals actually lasted for quite long time, probably thanks to the overall scarcity of hominid populations and vast territory available to them.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#27

Post by flessner » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #23

ivan_gammel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never understood why most people assume that humans today are, on average, more intelligent than our ancestors 40,000 years ago. Evolution of our species continues and some changes in our anatomy are being observed even in the last 100 years of our history. The evolutionary pressure never stopped, it just changed its form. We are no longer competing with nature, we are competing with ourselves, adjusting our diet…

> our society, our language are much more sophisticated, our abstract thinking and creativity have advanced, Can we be so sure? Our tools have evolved and become more sophisticated thanks for our industry for sure, but that says nothing of intelligence per se. How much more or less sophisticated and creative were humans only 150/200 years ago? Yet, technologically... things have moved quite a bit. Technology that has…

I think a lot of this discussion can evolve around definitions.

If we look at history back until the industrial revolution, I would guess that less people had to work on food production and thus could go into creative fields.

Intelligence is better measurable through IQ tests and we can see IQ score rising in societies today. (Flynn Effect)

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#28

Post by hunterb123 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> I read somewhere that the body proportions of Neanderthals are within the range of body proportions of modern humans, and research suggests that there was interbreeding between Sapiens and Neanderthals.

Of course there was interbreeding. Their smaller population was bred into the larger Sapiens population. This is why most of us (Caucasians) have some percentage of Neanderthal in us.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#29

Post by robbedpeter » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #26

sillysaurusx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible. It's just one of those explanations that we'd really love to believe, since the alternative is so unthinkable. It's been a hobby of mine to be skeptical of it. Even Kurzgesagt mentioned in passing that we're not sure if it was due to "a series of minor genocides." - https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o?t=79 - https://youtu.be/CWu29PRCUvQ?t=165 If anyone knows of breadcrumbs to follow, please chime in. Genetic…

Neanderthals and humans co-existed for some 5,000 years. Think of that in terms of our modern history, and how many ethnical groups was there in that time span - and almost all of them perished completely, either destroyed or assimilated by others (usually a combination of both). Thinking of it, neanderthals actually lasted for quite long time, probably thanks to the overall scarcity of hominid populations and vast t…

We also lived in caves for several tens of millenia across multiple stretches of time, without written language. There may have been some sort of ephemeral symbolic transfer (knots, beads, wood carvings,) but it looks like those cultures used primarily oral traditions. We know many non literate cultures develop memory palace techniques, so rigorous oral traditions can be incredibly durable and stable, with lots of information passed down accurately. All that to say, human tribes could have had detailed and specific knowledge of interactions with Neanderthals over millenia, and developed peaceful tradition that maximizes cooperation, or at least borders that kept conflict minimized. Neanderthals could likely do the same memory tricks.

5000 years is a blip - if humans find a sufficiently habitable environment, we apparently can settle for a pretty low quality of life.

It only works until it doesn't, though. Neanderthals or humans could have initiated an incident, in which traditions were distrusted or discarded or lost on either side, resulting in hostility, or they lost their elders to disease and the knowledge to survive.

Just like megafauna extinction, "bad humans were bad" probably doesn't come close to what actually happened.

Neanderthals were likely as or more intelligent than humans, implying susceptibility to all the same conflicts, biased thinking, and bad incentives that affect human cultures. It could be environmental or biological or a pure fluke that Neanderthals didn't outlive humans, but whatever the reason they're gone, it's going to be just as convoluted and nuanced as the rise and fall of millenia old human cultures.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#30

Post by ivan_gammel » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 6:33 PM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #23

ivan_gammel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never understood why most people assume that humans today are, on average, more intelligent than our ancestors 40,000 years ago. Evolution of our species continues and some changes in our anatomy are being observed even in the last 100 years of our history. The evolutionary pressure never stopped, it just changed its form. We are no longer competing with nature, we are competing with ourselves, adjusting our diet…

> our society, our language are much more sophisticated, our abstract thinking and creativity have advanced, Can we be so sure? Our tools have evolved and become more sophisticated thanks for our industry for sure, but that says nothing of intelligence per se. How much more or less sophisticated and creative were humans only 150/200 years ago? Yet, technologically... things have moved quite a bit. Technology that has…

200 years is not long time ago, the changes may be subtle. I’m not aware of any research in this field, but mass education improves our cognitive abilities and I won’t be surprised to see if natural selection favors those who respond to education better. Our species developed new ways to pass „genetic“ information to next generations beyond DNA. We may be almost the same as ancient human right after birth, but we acquire and encode in our behavior and body much more extra information as we grow. Our biome adjusts to our food habits, our hormonal system adapts to our level of stress, our immune system gets upgrades via vaccines etc etc. And all of this is controlled by our intelligence.