Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

Thanks for the heads-up. I think there is something that automatically switched it to the DOI after I submitted. It should redirect to this: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abj9496

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#5

Post by lqet » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that Sapiens back then just thought of a Neanderthal tribe in a similar way they thought about another Sapiens tribe. I read somewhere that the body proportions of Neanderthals are within the range of body proportions of modern humans, and research suggests that there was interbreeding between Sapiens and Neanderthals.

(As a male homo sapiens, I have to say that if Neanderthal women looked like this [0], they certainly looked a bit strange, but they were not repelling or appeared un-human.)

On a side note regarding early sapiens: I never understood why most people assume that humans today are, on average, more intelligent than our ancestors 40,000 years ago. If anything, thousands of years of agriculture and living in large settlements removed the evolutionary pressure to be a quick and inventive observer of your environment. It is much more easy to somehow get by in an established farming community with thousands of members if you are a bit dense than it is if you are part of a small tribe of hunters.

[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Reconstr...

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#6

Post by trevize1138 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

mzs wrote: post #2

some press coverage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60305218 https://phys.org/news/2022-02-french-cave-story-neanderthals... original: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abj9496

The whole story gets more and more interesting and complex over time as we uncover it. No single "missing link." No simplistic story of homo sapiens coming in and wiping out neanderthals. A recent documentary I saw painted this very messy picture of migration in-and-out of various parts of Eurasia, back to Africa, back out and a general genetic mixing all-around. Overall modern humans out-competed neanderthals but also bred with them and that DNA shows up in many of us today.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#7

Post by sillysaurusx » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals.

(Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is.

Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources.

Word has it that you can find their descendants on Wall Street though.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#8

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

> I think it is pretty likely that Sapiens back then just thought of a Neanderthal tribe in a similar way they thought about another Sapiens tribe.

I would think so as well, although the Neanderthal tribes were much smaller than Sapiens tribes, weren’t they?

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#9

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #7

lqet wrote: post #5

I would love to know what early Sapiens thought about the Neanderthals. Did they see them as that other tribe that is very strong, but acts a bit foolishly sometimes? As we have been the only remaining member of the Homo species for thousands of years now, living side by side with creatures that are only quite like us is an experience that has been lost in the collective human memory. I think it is pretty likely that…

If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals. (Some) humans are willing to mate with just about anything. There would be human-dog hybrids if it wasn't genetically impossible, as unsettling as that thought is. Seems more likely that we treated Neanderthals as humans do with other outsiders: we exterminated them and took their resources. Word has it that you can find their desce…

> If that were true, I'm not sure we'd use the term "extinct" to refer to Neanderthals.

Why not? Lots of our ancestors are extinct.

Re: Modern human incursion into Neanderthal territories 54k years ago at Mandrin

#10

Post by trinsic2 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

trevize1138 wrote: post #6

mzs wrote: post #2

some press coverage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60305218 https://phys.org/news/2022-02-french-cave-story-neanderthals... original: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abj9496

The whole story gets more and more interesting and complex over time as we uncover it. No single "missing link." No simplistic story of homo sapiens coming in and wiping out neanderthals. A recent documentary I saw painted this very messy picture of migration in-and-out of various parts of Eurasia, back to Africa, back out and a general genetic mixing all-around. Overall modern humans out-competed neanderthals but al…

Can you post some info on that doc? Fascinating stuff.