Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#31

Post by bradly » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

I worked at Apple and I’m okay they do this. My role is my information to share. I don’t need that sitting in some database in perpetuity.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#32

Post by sillyquiet » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

Apple also was involved with the really shady no-compete-clause stuff for former employees, so this does not surprise me, but I don't know if I am ready to attribute this to malice yet -

I can imagine there being some HR system that does this automatically as a default for employees that don't have a title at Apple anymore.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#33

Post by hammock » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

tedivm wrote: post #18

I think it's really important to note that Apple does not have to share their database with these third party companies, but not only do they choose to do so they also make sure the information is wrong. Apple is, essentially, being unethical on two levels. They're selling or sharing employee information, and they're purposefully making it so that information is wrong. I want to stress this- I ask during the intervie…

>Apple does not have to share their database with these third party companies, but not only do they choose to do so they also make sure the information is wrong. Apple is, essentially, being unethical on two levels

By giving out wrong personal information, the argument could be made that they are protecting privacy.

I do not believe saying "associate" is wrong, though. It's a term that is commonly used by HR to refer generically to anyone who works for a company. If you haven't encountered it, it may feel foreign to you, especially since Apple is a retail company and you may be conflating it with "retail associate." That's not what it means though.

"Employee" is a term fraught with legal and other liability in it's use (think Uber drivers - are they employees or contractors?). HR departments will refer to everybody as “associates” to mitigate risk. If Apple wanted to confirm employment, but not divulge titles, they could say associate.

Similarly, Starbucks uses "partners." Do you really think a barista is a part-owner in Starbucks and that's why they're called a partner?

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#34

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I remember when I interned at Intel, on the way out I asked about references and I was told, very nicely, that Intel's official policy is to only confirm employment. I suspect that this is really what Apple is doing; but that some accident of circumstance required them to provide a very generic title. Perhaps they can't confirm employment without some kind of title, and that title's now been twisted out of context? F…

The the title would have been changed to “former employee”, not “associate”, for which the only conceivable reason seems to be to confuse.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#35

Post by bradly » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

_fat_santa wrote: post #6

Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Or just the totality of circumstances in general. If say you're interviewing for a "Sr Engineer" position, you're just not going to have an instance where the candidate shows experience and knowledge but doesn't get hired because some record from Lexis Nexis says that he was an "as…

Your new employer can believe you? If they are hiring simply based on a couple words from a different company, then there is going to be risk for them.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#36

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

Leaving a cult is the ultimate sin in most cults, so it is not surprising at all. Any Apple employees reading this that want out, here’s a guide for help.

https://www.wikihow.com/Leave-a-Cult

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#37

Post by hammock » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

manuelabeledo wrote: post #19

gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I remember when I interned at Intel, on the way out I asked about references and I was told, very nicely, that Intel's official policy is to only confirm employment. I suspect that this is really what Apple is doing; but that some accident of circumstance required them to provide a very generic title. Perhaps they can't confirm employment without some kind of title, and that title's now been twisted out of context? F…

Title is nothing subjective. In fact, titles and levels can be matched between two companies easily. Anyway, this is not what Apple is doing. They are downgrading everyone by default, which is akin to providing false information about a former employee.

"Associate" is not a downgrade. It's a generic title that means "employee" and literally everyone (except maybe named officers in the legal filings) is an associate.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#38

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #8

It surprised me much more to know that there are databases maintained by the likes of Equifax about persons' complete employment history, job titles and all... I think GDPR here in Europe really woke up the feeling that this kind of data shouldn't exist without explicit approval from the person which PII belongs to. This is beyond fucked up in my data privacy minded worldview.

Ok, but let’s back it up one step.

Am I (a random internet guy) allowed to call the company you claim you currently work for on LinkedIn, and ask them whether you work there in such and such a position? Can I ask them how much they pay you?

Sure, I can ask, but can they answer? Is all or some of that really privileged information? There are two parties in your employment, and both own the information. Are you prohibited from telling others you work there or how much they pay you? If not, why would the employer be prohibited from telling others?

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#39

Post by LegitShady » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I remember when I interned at Intel, on the way out I asked about references and I was told, very nicely, that Intel's official policy is to only confirm employment. I suspect that this is really what Apple is doing; but that some accident of circumstance required them to provide a very generic title. Perhaps they can't confirm employment without some kind of title, and that title's now been twisted out of context? F…

the employee's title while working there doesn't represent any liability that I can think of, and changing it post employment and lying about their title to anyone inquiring seems like a liability instead. Seems like they're trying to sabotage people's careers if they leave apple.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#40

Post by hammock » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #34

gwbas1c wrote: post #16

I remember when I interned at Intel, on the way out I asked about references and I was told, very nicely, that Intel's official policy is to only confirm employment. I suspect that this is really what Apple is doing; but that some accident of circumstance required them to provide a very generic title. Perhaps they can't confirm employment without some kind of title, and that title's now been twisted out of context? F…

The the title would have been changed to “former employee”, not “associate”, for which the only conceivable reason seems to be to confuse.

Associate means employee