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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#781

Post by vkou »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #586
wwweston wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. A total lack of belief to the point of nihilism is a crisis of meaning, to be sure, but it tends to collapse towards either hedonism or depression rather than monomaniacal infliction of harm on the rest of the world. True determined harm usually requires ideological zeal.

> True determined harm usually requires ideological zeal. That's not what I think motivated all the US school shootings in the last 25 years. Ideological zeal that pursues actively harming others is something I don't think the US has much of, culturally speaking. No one preaches "those people need to die" or "we need to harm those people".

> No one preaches "those people need to die" or "we need to harm those people".

Nobody says it out loud, they just strongly imply it.

Much like how nobody advocates for war by saying that , they couch it behind nicer-sounding rhetoric.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#782

Post by [deleted] »

xhevahir wrote: post #779
nautilius wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You prove my point. You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person. These are two different worlds. Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. That there is some superficial overlap (a tree? presents?) doesn't allow you to claim the morality of atheists as religion-derived. That's ludicrous. It's like saying the local butcher t…

>Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. The notion that atheists--or Christians, for that matter--ground their moral reasoning in first principles, completely free of unexamined assumptions and social convention, is so laughable that I'm amazed anyone here is seriously suggesting it.

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#783

Post by vmception »

javajosh wrote: post #763
mbfg wrote: post #695

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is. We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellen…

>Women, on the other hand, haven't been given the same advertising on the American dream that men have There is a documentary, "Born Rich" [0]. It's interviews with the children of very rich people, done by one of their peers. I noticed that in the film there is stark difference between the girls and the boys: the girls were all well adjusted, enjoying their wealth, happy, satisfied, seemingly well-aware of their goo…

Well thats depressing, I saw a similar documentary that didnt really have anything stark across gender lines, but did show how some private high school students in NYC had trouble reconciling their circumstance with the public housing across the street. The most apt similarity being how one boy took his life after pushing the school administration to lower admission costs for needy.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#784

Post by [deleted] »

antisthenes wrote: post #461
adriand wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tell Women painfully stupid stuff they want to hear If you are looking for a reason for your travails, here it is. If you started out with this level of contempt, it’s no wonder you’ve been unsuccessful. If you became embittered due to your challenges, then I’m sorry. That is a hard path. But if you want it to change, I think you have some work to do. And I wish you luck with it.

The typical women are wonderful counterargument. Dime a dozen in threads like these. I suggest you take your own advice and work on your issues that make you respond in a knee-jerk manner, blaming them like that, instead of assuming that OP may be correct in their assessment about the dating scene.

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#785

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

javajosh wrote: post #763
mbfg wrote: post #695

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is. We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellen…

>Women, on the other hand, haven't been given the same advertising on the American dream that men have There is a documentary, "Born Rich" [0]. It's interviews with the children of very rich people, done by one of their peers. I noticed that in the film there is stark difference between the girls and the boys: the girls were all well adjusted, enjoying their wealth, happy, satisfied, seemingly well-aware of their goo…

It's a uniquely American thing.

I studied abroad for a semester in England, and in one of the classes I took there the (Australian) professor asked us what socioeconomic class we thought we belonged to. It was a good university, but most of the British kids answered "working class." When he asked "Why?" they answered, "Because our parents work."

That always stuck with me. In England, the aristocracy is alive and well. They don't have to work, and they don't pretend to. They do live comfortably, but they're highly educated and reasonably well adjusted. They don't have to partake in the charade that they pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, and they generally don't blow their family's fortune over a debauched decade in Vegas like their American counterparts either.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#786

Post by brunellus »

mbfg wrote: post #695

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is. We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellen…

I’ve tried to articulate this a few times but you’ve bested all of my attempts.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#787

Post by slim »

kevinob11 wrote: post #82

I'm a white straight male, grew up middle class near Seattle. I'm now in my mid-30s and have 3 kids. Semi-recently I had an (maybe my first?) experience where I wasn't the favored party in a situation. My kids have made focus more difficult, and I work in an industry (tech consulting) where focus is a big deal, and the idea that I'm not the perfect person for the job was a foreign feeling. I no longer felt "I was mad…

I'm older than you, living in a third world country. I've been reflecting on this since I discovered my privileges like you did. I feel like the poor state of my society comes from the fact that a large part of the population is constantly trying to survive. That state of survivorship is what makes a person make poor choices, harm other people and lose respect for themselves. Which makes those persons untrustworthy and explains the low level of trust in my society.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#788

Post by leto_ii »

rayiner wrote: post #269
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

> 60% of working Dutch women only work part time, versus 20% of working Dutch men

I would attribute this more to cultural aspects (there's something of a ravenmuter [1] issue in the Netherlands as well), but even more importantly, to basic economics. Kindergarden is very expensive, women get some maternal leave while men basically get none, so there's significant pressure on the mother to stay at home with the kids for longer.

When they return to the workforce after some years of childcare, they do so to lower salaries than they would have had otherwise, hence part time work becomes more attractive.

I don't deny that there's a natural tendency for women to be more nurturing, but I don't think that's the main force driving this disparity.

[1] https://m.dw.com/en/rabenmutter/a-6616009

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#789

Post by ctrl_s »

rayiner wrote: post #682
nautilius wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that 'cultural legacy' is completely different from 'organized religion'. Celebrating 'Christmas' as a family get-together is completely different from celebrating the arrival of the messiah and deriving your complete moral compass from that.

I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got marrie…

> Consider, for example, the obsession in Christian countries with equality. They almost fall over themselves to welcome people from different ethnic backgrounds. I suspect this has something to do with Christianity’s origins as a Jewish religion adopted by the Gentiles

My experiences are almost the complete opposite to yours, I suspect there are major differences between congregations that can't be applied to the nation at large. Churches in the US are weirdly segregated by ethnicity, at least in the south[0] where you find black churches,white churches, Korean churches, etc.

I am African, and had the misfortune of attending a church that's part of the Southern Baptist Convention. I got the distinct sense that they are warm and welcoming to people requiring charity or to rake on as a "project"; not equals. Almost everyone who saw me volunteer assumed I was a poor student at the affiliated Theological college, and would be very warm, but when I'd let them know I was a software engineer and much closer to them socio-economically than they had assumed, they didn't know quite how to act, it was weird,and it happened multiple times.

Trump's presidency was a bad time to be black in an SBC church. I never felt quite comfortable, and my faith intensely tested. It came to a head when I encountered incidents of passive and active racism[1],and I came to the conclusion that we could not possibly be worshipping the same God. Then again, the southern churches could reconcile Christianity and slavery, so perhaps all ethnicities are welcome, with the long-lived exception of blacks. YMMV

0. As a point of comparison: South Africa has more integrated churches, just 1 generation since the end of apartheid.

1. Why aren't you going to a black church? Oh, the other black member, he's intelligent and articulate, he's practically white!

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#790

Post by Dracophoenix »

awaythrow483 wrote: post #359
paulpauper wrote: post #111

The crisis, if there is one, is that society has less use for males who have IQs between 90-105 or so, who cannot cut it in STEM, and who are finding it hard to cope with increasingly competitive economic conditions and higher overall costs like rent, and is why many men are delaying family formation or moving back with parents (but also due to careerism for women). Men are just dropping out rather than doing low-pai…

I'm 33, Ive got a fairly high IQ, make $340k in a STEM field and enough to retire tomorrow, I'm not unattractive, and put a huge amount of effort over many years into online dating. I've pretty much given up on dating. I have a total inability to find anyone I'm interested in that is interested in me. When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partner…

>When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partners.

What changed for you?

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