> we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic I know "toxic masculinity" is a dumb academic term that never should have become a slogan, but Andrew, Mr. Yang, that's not what it means. It's like "async functions". Not all functions are async. It's okay if a function is sync. Adjectives modify nouns to make them refer to a specific subset. It's fine to be masculine. I don't know what it means to be masculin…
How often do the people who use "toxic masculinity" have any word other than "toxic" in front? About never?
The data are clear: The boys are not all right
771–780 of 1001 posts
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#772Seeger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Zt0O2lyhk
Cash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppa__7ZLAU8
When a woman or other media-favored-identity (which can include gender, race, religion, different-abledness, or an intersection of several, changing day-to-day and year-to-year, and media source to media source) achieves great things, their status as a woman or favored-minority is highlighted alongside their achievements (I would say this is not a bad thing as maybe people sharing that identity will believe in themselves a bit more and be inspired to do great things).
But when a man achieves success, their manness is certainly not highlighted. If the man is also a member of a media-favored-identity, then that will be highlighted. When was the last time you saw a headline: ‘First Man to [do thing]’? Instead, it would be ‘First Person to [do thing]’, or if someone else had already done that cool thing then it wouldn’t be a headline (unless it was like ‘first man to give birth to octuplets’, I can see that making the front page of the NYTimes).
Also, as a society we celebrate woman-dominated professions such as teachers and nurses (very deserved imo, except for my 6th grade teacher), but, at least in the ‘liberal’ mainstream, there is no similar celebration of male-dominated professions (except when a media-favored-identity finds success at that profession and the media is like ‘breaking news! single-mother black woman Polly-Ann drives steel like a man’ [too much?]). Is it any surprise that those who identify as men are more likely to also identify with the political and intellectual movements that still glorify the man-identity (I would say the liberal mainstream also forgets about rural folks, with the same effect)? Example: many Republican-leaning outlets will celebrate those who work in our military, regardless of the soldier’s identity (well, maybe not regardless, but at least so long as they are a meat-and-potatoes sort of man).
Maybe the answer is that we all ought to think of ourselves as people above all else. Maybe an achievement should be celebrated and highlighted equally no matter what sort of person you are, because it is no surprise that one sort of person is just as capable as a Man sort of person. I do not know the answer, but I would also say this: Did man-people have tens or hundreds or thousands of years of society saying that only man-people are capable of great achievements? Should we spend some time saying loud and clear that ‘yo, we got it wrong. not-man-people are also capable of great achievements’? But should we also hope towards a time where person-achievements are celebrated regardless of identity? Do we still have work to do before we get there? I would say yes.
Looking forward, the media says automation will eat our jobs, from truck drivers (self-driving cars) to soldiers (self-shooting-missile-drones) to programmers (self-programming-program).
If you listen close you can hear the clanging.
The steam drill is a’coming for ya.
But, man, watch Polly-Ann swing that hammer.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#773And now I'm left wondering how much of that effect actually contributes to what's being discussed in TFA. Underdeveloped males probably underperform in myriad ways.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#774Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a huge body of education research about this, this has been the case for of years. There's even data from the pre-1900s, especially in the primary school years. Only recently have we stripped away a lot of the sexism however, providing a successful transition to higher education. It all boils down to: Girls are more likely to do their damn homework when the teacher tells them. Therefore they out-perform in fo…
Another way to look at it is that educational systems are setup to favour girls over boys. Typically when we see outcome differences between two groups in a system, most people will blame the system... unless they think it's good/natural for one group to do worse than the other.
The gender pay gap: clearly there is no legitimate or natural way that men would make more money than women in a fair system, so the system must be biased against women.
The gender academic success gap: boys don't pay attention or do their work so it's only natural for girls to do better.
It's clear that for both of these thoughts to exist in someone's head, they must think there's a superior gender.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#775Earlier quoted context omitted.
Note that 'cultural legacy' is completely different from 'organized religion'. Celebrating 'Christmas' as a family get-together is completely different from celebrating the arrival of the messiah and deriving your complete moral compass from that.
Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.
I really dislike religion claiming monopoly on morals.
Even tribes of cavemen cared for each-other. We have evidence of people being cared for and living for years with crippling iniiries. They could not care for themselves let alone help the tribe.
Even animals care for each-other and protect each-other, can't claim culture or religion there - its a basic feature of evolution.
If there was actually a correlation between religion and morality, then we would see less crimes like murder/ robbery /rape in religious societies. If anything, the opposite is true.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#776Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got marrie…
"think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate." The cultural legacy of modern Europe is that of Renaissance, which is a partial rejection of many religious morals and practices we would find abhorrent today. Like burning heretics, astronomers and philosophers at the stake, witch hunts, etc. People were put to death for translating the Bible into english from latin, mind you. The…
People did not go out and restart republics (for a couple centuries, which is a long time), nor bring back Aristotelian astronomy (rather the opposite), nor rituals of the old gods, nor rediscover ancient works that hadn’t been intentionally preserved by centuries of medieval scribes (papyrus lasts < 500 years in moist Europe). They reinterpreted the past. It was no longer “copy the procedures of the great doctor Galen”, it was “copy the curiosity”.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#777Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe it's reactionary attitudes like these (why can't we have a special club?) that make tech so hostile to women in the first place. If they feel better in a space that specifically caters to women, and if by them feeling better, they actually learn the skills, why should they not have those spaces? These are not mutually exclusive things!
Now try proposing a space that caters to men and helps them learn and feel better.
For example, we have parent-child meetups here. Since it is almost exclusively mothers who show up (despite being open to all parents), they at some point introduced an extra meetup for fathers. This gives men an opportunity to take part in something with their kid where they aren't the only man in the room.
X-only spaces make sense when X is marginalized or a minority. If you start a kindergarten teacher group for men, noone is going to complain.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#778Earlier quoted context omitted.
Question. How would you suggest I square your claims about Arab society with the observed fact that every year thousands of girls die in Arab countries from honor killings. And the fact that, as https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respon... shows, in many of these countries, significant minorities think that such killings are justified. Killing your own child suggests to me that kinship means rather…
Honor killings happen because kinship ties are so strong. The individual becomes completely subsumed within the family. Anything that brings shame to the individual is imputed to the whole family. Moreover, controlling reproduction becomes extremely important because that is how kinship links between families are created.
Conversely, liberty starts with valuing humans for the individuals that they are. And not as mere appendages which serve a larger whole.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#779Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.
You prove my point. You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person. These are two different worlds. Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. That there is some superficial overlap (a tree? presents?) doesn't allow you to claim the morality of atheists as religion-derived. That's ludicrous. It's like saying the local butcher t…
The notion that atheists--or Christians, for that matter--ground their moral reasoning in first principles, completely free of unexamined assumptions and social convention, is so laughable that I'm amazed anyone here is seriously suggesting it.
Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right
#780Earlier quoted context omitted.
"think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate." The cultural legacy of modern Europe is that of Renaissance, which is a partial rejection of many religious morals and practices we would find abhorrent today. Like burning heretics, astronomers and philosophers at the stake, witch hunts, etc. People were put to death for translating the Bible into english from latin, mind you. The…
This reads like Renaissance era propaganda. It was mostly a reaction to existing social pressures which used the notion of the classics to promote change. People did not go out and restart republics (for a couple centuries, which is a long time), nor bring back Aristotelian astronomy (rather the opposite), nor rituals of the old gods, nor rediscover ancient works that hadn’t been intentionally preserved by centuries…
The fact that we call the time when Church was at the peak of it's power 'Dark Ages' is a testament to success of Renaissance era propaganda
> People did not go out and restart republics
The french revolution?