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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#691

Post by atq2119 »

nautilius wrote: post #622
hypertele-Xii wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.

You prove my point. You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person. These are two different worlds. Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. That there is some superficial overlap (a tree? presents?) doesn't allow you to claim the morality of atheists as religion-derived. That's ludicrous. It's like saying the local butcher t…

> You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person.

Raises hand: Atheist here who thinks that a historical Jesus is at least plausible. Obviously not a son of god, though, that would have been embellishment by later generations.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#692

Post by boppo1 »

antisthenes wrote: post #438
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> The "Lump of Labor" fallacy is just that, a fallacy. Economic gains are not zero-sum. Frankly, I'm very tired of debunking the zero-sum trope. Not only are many things in the economy zero-sum, in the case of labor, even if the economy is humming at 150%, it's trivial to imagine a scenario where the man and the woman are both earning 75% of what they would have without the other sex in the labor force. Both are wors…

> Not only are many things in the economy zero-sum, in the case of labor, even if the economy is humming at 150%, it's trivial to imagine a scenario where the man and the woman are both earning 75% of what they would have without the other sex in the labor force. Both are worse off, yet the capital owners are better off and it gives the illusion that everything is going great.

> The illusion is so good that we've divorced productivity from wage for 50 years, made tons of women miserable and no one so much as batted an eye.

Pop-feminism is too carefully-enshrined to speak openly about this, but I'm pretty sure it's absolutely correct.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#693

Post by [deleted] »

skeaker wrote: post #594
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men. I’ve been seeing this exact trope repeated more and more on HN lately: Some vague assertion that Tinder is the only place for matchmaking and that only a tiny number of men are getting all of the matches. It’s an objectively ridiculous claim for anyone who has experience in the real world where, yes, even “normal…

Genuinely asking, roughly how old are you? I'm in my early-mid twenties and of the ~100 people I keep in touch with my age range from high school, there has been one child born (by accident if the rumors are true) and zero marriages. Of the dozen or so people I keep in regular contact with I've gathered that this is not for lack of trying, either. Obviously there is bias here as this is all anecdotal, but I'm very cu…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#694

Post by arbitrary_name »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #581
symlinkk wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.

> The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men. I’ve been seeing this exact trope repeated more and more on HN lately: Some vague assertion that Tinder is the only place for matchmaking and that only a tiny number of men are getting all of the matches. It’s an objectively ridiculous claim for anyone who has experience in the real world where, yes, even “normal…

Did you date during Covid? I did. Every possible avenue to meet partners was closed except...apps. i am extremely active and extroverted, but yoga classes went online, the gym shut down, the bars closed, concerts were cancelled. Dance studios shut their doors. How exactly were your expecting dating to work for the last few years?

I would not underestimate how much the process of dating and meeting romantic partners has shifted because of that, even as we re-open. the stigma is mostly gone and there is little reason not to at least be present there.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#695

Post by mbfg »

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is.

We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look.

And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellence and the dream still lives in fits and starts, but for the general person, they are likely shut out from any real hope of this grand vision.

You add in COVID and the lockdowns, and economic turmoil, and then people start realizing that the whole race is kind of pointless. I can be poor busting my butt at a crappy job i hate, or i can be poor moving in with family and being 'unproductive' (for some definition of societal unproductivity).

Women, on the other hand, haven't been given the same advertising on the American dream that men have, which obviously is a terrible thing, but in this one sense probably helped them survive and prosper even when life sucks in a modern world.

I'm supposing the sell-job of an equivalence of the 'american' dream in other countries is not nearly so commercial, and blaring. And so kids are likely not so shocked at the difference between expectations and reality. Throw in that many other countries are flat out better in many social structural ways, and i think that explains why, it's especially troubling in America.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#696

Post by [deleted] »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #530

I would guess this is yet another side effect of the rich gaining more and more power, controlling the government, the law, law enforcement, the money supply, and employment. It's not about men, but you can point at men as a group that suffer, simply because most people suffer, as the minority are rich. HN-ers, in terms of wealth, are probably hanging around either side of the event horizon.

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#697

Post by bradlys »

epx wrote: post #620
bradlys wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are in 2022 and a nice, wealthy and rational guy won't commit to someone without a career and finances in order. This is more often false than true. I know many men who have or are marrying women who make 1/2 or less what they do. Nice, wealthy, and rational folks. They however need a woman. And there is a strong lack of women who are anywhere near where many men are in compensation and wealth. I am example of t…

But would you sleep better at night if you had a daughter, than if you had a son, because of that? To my son, I teach that there are no gender roles set in stone. If in doubt, stay single and childless; he has many, many decades to opt out if the Right One shows up.

> But would you sleep better at night if you had a daughter, than if you had a son, because of that?

Yes, I am hoping that I have daughters. I do not want a son. I experienced life as a man and have seen what the life of my partners is in comparison. If the girls come out even half as decent looking - they'll coast through life with little guidance needed from me.

I have friends with just daughters - and they all do not envy the parents with boys. They are all feeling blessed to have daughters. I think being a woman has its struggles but the plights are mostly for those in the poor class. If you're upper middle class or above as most people in tech within SV - you can mostly skate by many issues. The issues of a man do not go away regardless of your class - short of being hyper-wealthy.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#698

Post by arbitrary_name »

prawn wrote: post #629
eropple wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that. I genuinely did. I thought that the bar was all the way up in space and that it’s impossible to reach it. I was pretty lonely. Of course, I used to also think that my value was in my net worth and you could have seen all the way from space the “I’m an asshole and I don’t know why nobody will date me” vibes radiating off of me. Then I grew up, I chilled out, and I put conscious effort into things…

I have zero experience with online dating, but I've watched a friend give it a crack after divorce. A brutal appraisal would be: struggling freelancer, doesn't own a house, overweight, mental health issues, greybeard. On the other hand: smart, good sense of humour, etc. Yet he's had a solid number of dates and he puts it down mostly to not putting a picture of him catching a fish in his profile, and holding a decent…

It's exactly like marketing, but the product is you: understand the customer you want, understand the market dynamics, understand the product. Carefully position the product to ensure you are reaching the right customers, and be willing to iterate. I literally A/B tested profile descriptions and pics yo improve my response rates on apps.

And now i have a wonderful SO and don't have to deal with those awful apps for the time being.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#699

Post by nautilius »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #670
nautilius wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but a superficial and accidental partial overlap between atheist and religious morals is meaningless.

I disagree that it’s superficial or accidental.

You’re not alone. Many religious people cannot fathom that something outside of and independent of their moral system exists. Take the old discussion of atheists as satanists. What is that joke again? “No, we don’t believe in any of your imaginary friends.“

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#700

Post by hiptobecubic »

adriand wrote: post #689
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women as an "interest group" have been incredible at PR this last century. Men, on the other hand, have yet to realize that they can't coast on the existing historic momentum and have to start speaking up. It doesn't help that folks who attempt to represent men's rights are instantly smeared as either pathetic incel losers, or as alt-right oppressor misogynists. There's no in-between that I'm aware of. From what I ca…

Feminism isn’t about putting women ahead of men though. It’s about creating equity. Feminism is needed because of the ongoing power imbalance between the sexes. There are still very few arenas in which men do not enjoy the advantage. The men’s rights stuff is toxic because it’s about conflict. It’s about pushing back against feminism, which is essentially fighting against equity. With that said, I see nothing wrong w…

This post pretty much perfectly reflects their point.

"Arguing for men's rights is bad because it's all about squashing women, otherwise they'd be arguing for women's rights, which is actually just arguing for everyone's rights." This just isn't a reasonable way to frame it at all.

There aren't many places where men have a clear and systematic disadvantage in society, but there are some and arguing that there shouldn't be is not all about conflict.

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