The data are clear: The boys are not all right • Hacker News Board

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#641

Post by prawn » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

ravel-bar-foo wrote: post #634

prawn wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping these men being a provider for themselves, their partner, family or children? I'd agree that meaning/purpose is part of this puzzle, but there are still children needing a provider and partners who either expect a fulltime breadwinner or find some other balance. My guess is the perceived opportunity of improving your lot in life has declined and males, on the whole, have struggled with motivation as a…

So my family is very liberal. When I mentioned to my trans-brother that my goal in life is to be a well-earning father who is able to provide for my family, I got called 'priviledged', told I have an outdated mindset, and demeaned as a wannabe patriarch. I didn't say anything about limiting the opportunities of my wife, but bigoted sentiments were read into my desire to support a family. This despite the fact that my…

They're not giving you a very charitable reading. Easy enough to ignore. And their response doesn't stop you from putting yourself into that position - to provide for yourself, for a partner, for parents, children, etc. Just remember that money isn't the only way you provide, so maybe "well-earning" is what gave them the wrong impression.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#642

Post by cgriswald » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

coryrc wrote: post #532

thematrixturtle wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misspelled changing diapers, doing laundry three times a day, spoon-feeding broccoli puree, scraping dried broccoli off the floor, shopping while trying to contain a squealing octopus, etc.

Or watching and helping form your own child into him/herself, meeting your friends for casual lunches in the park while your kids play, playing goofy games, having time to make nutritious meals instead of heating frozen foods, etc.

Grandparent was responding to the ridiculous notion that being a homemaker is like being on vacation with kids. No one is disputing there can be benefits to being a homemaker or having one in the family.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#643

Post by kazinator » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

Unfortunately, this article takes it for granted that you must go to college to be anyone, and to have a good job: that no other activity or path through life has any value.

That idea has itself done harm to several generations.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#644

Post by hackerfromthefu » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:23 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #347

jaywalk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A woman simply cannot be a role model in all of the same ways as a man, and vice-versa. This belief that men and women are the same and contribute in exactly the same ways is a big part of the problem that this article discusses.

It's an assured-sounding statement, but what is it based on? I have role models that aren't my gender; it makes no difference to me.

I recommend the book 'Families and how to survive them' which covers human developmental psychology and has detailed sections on gendered role models. It may push a few woke buttons, but doesn't everything?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#645

Post by KennyBlanken » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:24 AM UTC

grvdrm wrote: post #286

paulryanrogers wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK starting the baby making process isn't terribly difficult once one has a partner. It's the carrying to term and everything after that is a lot of time, money, and energy. Some folks will struggle more with the partnering aspect than others. Or mustering the will and resources to begin parenting.

Spend some time reading about infertility at the start of the baby making process and I think you’ll find that it can terribly difficult. Especially as you progress into your mid/late 30s (women). And it is that starting process that can also cost lots of money, time, and energy.

Spend some time reading about infertility and you'll find that the number one cause for both men and women is obesity.

Every single one of my friends or acquaintances who is obese has had trouble conceiving. Every. Single. One.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#646

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

skeaker wrote: post #594

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men. I’ve been seeing this exact trope repeated more and more on HN lately: Some vague assertion that Tinder is the only place for matchmaking and that only a tiny number of men are getting all of the matches. It’s an objectively ridiculous claim for anyone who has experience in the real world where, yes, even “normal…

Genuinely asking, roughly how old are you? I'm in my early-mid twenties and of the ~100 people I keep in touch with my age range from high school, there has been one child born (by accident if the rumors are true) and zero marriages. Of the dozen or so people I keep in regular contact with I've gathered that this is not for lack of trying, either. Obviously there is bias here as this is all anecdotal, but I'm very cu…

That was the same for me in my mid-20s. By my mid 30s, vast majority are married with children. People are waiting a little longer than the last generation, but it's still happening as normal.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#647

Post by hackerfromthefu » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #13

paulcole wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this an issue? Aren't good role models good role models regardless of gender/sex?

some Depth Psychology (Jungian) suggests that the primal biological child is female. Development of a male starts similarly to the female, but must take steps over the growth phases, to differentiate. Historically males are very, very useful for successful survival and reproduction, but times have changed for WEIRD and others.. Meanwhile, cultural ritual was replaced by commercial "neutral" offerings that lessen diff…

I don't know anything about this, but I noticed it's being voted down to oblivion, without a single comment explaining why? Could anyone elucidate?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#648

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:27 AM UTC

coryrc wrote: post #532

thematrixturtle wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misspelled changing diapers, doing laundry three times a day, spoon-feeding broccoli puree, scraping dried broccoli off the floor, shopping while trying to contain a squealing octopus, etc.

Or watching and helping form your own child into him/herself, meeting your friends for casual lunches in the park while your kids play, playing goofy games, having time to make nutritious meals instead of heating frozen foods, etc.

Interestingly, you're both right. Turns out you have to take the bad with the good, or more accurately TANSTAAFL

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#649

Post by hackerfromthefu » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:29 AM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #90

uejfiweun wrote: post #64

Probably unpopular opinion: men having it tough is actually a good thing for men, if you make the most of it. Yes, in modern times as a man, you pretty much don't have any programs specifically designed to benefit you. And yes, men get shat on by pretty much every corner of society. But it's still possible to succeed in these conditions, and some people most definitely do. And those who were able to find their way an…

Just as long as you know you have succeeded in spite of it all and do not buy into the "almost failed despite being wildly privileged" idea that gets pushed. (To be clear: I am wildly privileged to live in a Western country now instead of living almost anywhere else at any other time. I'm also generally happy to be a strong and healthy male. My thoughts are best best explained by the fact that 1. all else being equal…

Yup you've just shown equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. Obviously this de-motivates men from a system stacked against then.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#650

Post by john_moscow » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:29 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #23

trentnix wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. In all the talk of racial or gender privilege, the most beneficial privilege a person can enjoy is the benefits of a loving, supportive, traditional two-parent household (there is insufficient data on non-traditional two-parent households). You can see a direct correlation in outcomes when comparing children that emerged from two-parent households over those that emerge from single-parent households. But because…

I wonder how much of that comes down to 1.5-2x the income compared to a single parent household, versus the beneficial effect of two role models.

Or, more importantly, selection bias. When people form a family, they eventually start having some disagreements. Those who have the skill to resolve them, de-escalate situations and find compromises, stay together. The ones who don't have these skills get divorced.