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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#391
post #161

Is there a generational thing that causes people to say "data is" vs. "data are" in this context? Because to me "data are" sounds so egregiously wrong it takes me seconds to focus on anything else.

It also took me a few seconds to focus on something else, but not because it sounded egregiously wrong but because it sounded quite cool.

Like something you'd find in a bit-sized "fun fact"...

"Did you know that data is the plural form of datum and [...]?" and so on :)

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, me too. But, would you still feel the same if you had to stay home to take care of kids and a working spouse ?

And having very few adults to talk to, no status, no career advancement (in fact, the opposite), and little recognition.

Eh? There are plenty of other parents and nannies at the park taking their kids out, if you want to talk to someone.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#393

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists.

I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie".

I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me wander, there was almost nowhere fun to wander _to_.

I don't have data to back this up, though. Maybe it's just resentment at how my childhood turned out.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#394

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

I think the obesity problem is linked to the fact that many people have to work 60 hours a week to survive and don't have the time/energy to get in shape. Capitalism has taken a large swath of people out of the dating game just due to working to survive.

Ehhhh... I don't know that capitalism can be blamed for personal irresponsibility. I'd say it's more of a motivation / knowledge thing. You don't have to live in the gym to get in shape. I spend about 4.5 hours per week total. Even when I've been in the very rare 70-80 hour/week death march, I could take an hour out of my day to go to the gym and lift.

Similarly, dieting is not an activity, more so the absence of one (shoving food in your mouth). When I'm cutting weight, I have more time because I'm not cooking eating food all the damn time. Eat a carrot rather than a Pizza to lose weight is not super rare knowledge. It IS uncomfortable, though.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#396

I wonder if social media technology is as much at fault as the neoliberal program of exporting well-paid manufacturing jobs overseas and replacing them with low-paid service jobs (with the difference going into the pockets of the shareholders) is. If children are being raised on TikTok, okay, the average video length on TikTok is a couple minutes. Advertisements are now 5-15 seconds. This is not conducive to 'long at…

> I wonder if the WaPo would be interested in publishing any critiques of social media effects on children, given their ties to Big Tech... Let's see... "New report: Most teens say social media makes them feel better, not worse, about themselves (2018)"

Oh come on. You're either being misleading, or have been mislead. What you wrote doesn't make any sense:

1. Why would the existence of an example of one type of article show the absence of a different type? It's not like the Washington Post cannot report on multiple sides of an issue.

2. A single article from five years ago? How is that supposed to support such a sweeping statement?

3. It's not hard, at all, to find examples of the WaPo "publishing any critiques of social media effects on children": "Instagram is even worse than we thought for kids. What do we do about it? (2021)" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/09/17/instagra...), probably all the articles in this search https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awashingtonpost.com+%2..., etc.

> Corporate media claims... remember this one? "NAFTA and China WTO will raise the standard of living for all Americans!"

As far as I can tell, you just made that up. Literally no Google hits: https://www.google.com/search?q="NAFTA+and+China+WTO+will+ra... (at the time of this writing, it looks like your comment hasn't been indexed yet). So, no, no one "remembers" that one.

And even if if the WaPo did publish an article claiming exactly that (most likely some kind of advocacy on the op-ed page), what's the big deal? Do you think they should censor articles like that? Perhaps by using their precognitive abilities to know who the future will prove wrong?

It's kind of ironic that many people's who criticize the media for being some kind of propaganda rag issue critiques that implicitly advocate for it to be a propaganda rag.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#397

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

To what extent is this just people not liking their current job? That is, what percentage of homemakers would rather be employed, and how would the opinions of employed women change if their choices in the poll were current job/appealing alternative job/homemaker?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#398

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

> I think the ball is firmly in the woman’s court now. Women have most of the advantages (education, societal promotion, fit in better with our institutions) I don't think we at all can define what individuals should do based on their gender; that is sort of the point. They can be who and what they want to be. Maybe by some theory women have most of the advantages, but the outcomes clearly indicate otherwise. Look at…

You can look at the elite in society and see an over-representation of men, but it's important to also look at the most downtrodden and worse off in society. The homeless; people who are the victims of violent crime; people who die in wars; people who die working shitty jobs; people who are so hopeless that they commit suicide. Perhaps even looking at things like lifespan.

Men's results are bimodal: if women are forced to break through a glass ceiling to reach the elite, men are similarly forced to walk on a glass floor that might collapse at any moment. And when it does, they're fucked.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#399
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you bro. I've felt that same way and I have empathy. You have solid points and a valid perspective. You could also really use an attitude adjustment. We're here as a society because of mishandled social responsibility. Women have only started to take up their own personal care because they can't rely on established conventions any more. We as individuals likely have not done much, if anything, to contribute to…

"Taking personal responsibility" is always an option, and it's usually the best option in terms of maximizing personal wellbeing. At the same time, it's important to recognize the social forces that constrain different groups and limit the power that personal agency can exert over outcomes. The masculine gender role is extremely narrow, and if you deviate much from it, society will punish you: so-called "personal res…

> The masculine gender role is extremely narrow, and if you deviate much from it, society will punish you.

> As a man seeking a female partner, if I want to be a homemaker who teaches belly dance part time, I'm going to be in for a really hard time, no matter how much personal agency I embrace.

If you say so, it will be so. If you write this code, you should not be surprised when running it achieves the programmed result. Whether you believe me or not, your statements are false. I spent time thinking this way, I suffered immensely, I put in deep effort to explore a larger perspective, and I am now greatly enjoying how incomplete was the field I saw before.

Women don't all want a provider. The trust of many has been damaged beyond that. They provide for themselves now (lots of men actually say we want that). What else can a man offer? Emotional support. The ability to make her feel like a fucking goddess. Being a homemaking belly dancer more aligns with that than doesn't.

You are right that women must participate too. They already are. It's men's attitudes that need to catch up.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#400

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists. I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie". I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me w…

> I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes

I agree with this for sure, and such zoning issues have been pointed to as the root cause of other societal ills dating back to (at least) Jane Jacobs' 1961 book The Death and Life of Great American Cities.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am...

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