The data are clear: The boys are not all right • Hacker News Board

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#381

Post by scarmig » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

azhu wrote: post #367

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #334

I don't see how we'll be able to make people care about this issue at the current zenith of The Future Is Female zeitgeist in the West. Given the current cultural and moral fashions, I can't think of many things that would be harder to empathize with than the laments of straight working-age men. There are so many more groups that are higher on the oppression totem pole that there's no way anybody will ever make it fa…

I feel you bro. I've felt that same way and I have empathy. You have solid points and a valid perspective. You could also really use an attitude adjustment. We're here as a society because of mishandled social responsibility. Women have only started to take up their own personal care because they can't rely on established conventions any more. We as individuals likely have not done much, if anything, to contribute to…

"Taking personal responsibility" is always an option, and it's usually the best option in terms of maximizing personal wellbeing.

At the same time, it's important to recognize the social forces that constrain different groups and limit the power that personal agency can exert over outcomes. The masculine gender role is extremely narrow, and if you deviate much from it, society will punish you: so-called "personal responsibility" plays the role of telling men to shut up and fit their role. As a man seeking a female partner, if I want to be a homemaker who teaches belly dance part time, I'm going to be in for a really hard time, no matter how much personal agency I embrace.

That also ignores the shittiness that even people who do manage to fit neatly into the masculine gender role still have to experience.

It's worth calling out these things in the hopes of driving social change, and it's something both men and women must participate in if we want to see a change.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#382

Post by jimmyjazz14 » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #111

The crisis, if there is one, is that society has less use for males who have IQs between 90-105 or so, who cannot cut it in STEM, and who are finding it hard to cope with increasingly competitive economic conditions and higher overall costs like rent, and is why many men are delaying family formation or moving back with parents (but also due to careerism for women). Men are just dropping out rather than doing low-pai…

> The crisis, if there is one

I mean it is a crisis (at least potentially), creating a large group of disenfranchised men is not going to lead anywhere good.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#383

Post by nervlord » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

azhu wrote: post #367

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #334

I don't see how we'll be able to make people care about this issue at the current zenith of The Future Is Female zeitgeist in the West. Given the current cultural and moral fashions, I can't think of many things that would be harder to empathize with than the laments of straight working-age men. There are so many more groups that are higher on the oppression totem pole that there's no way anybody will ever make it fa…

I feel you bro. I've felt that same way and I have empathy. You have solid points and a valid perspective. You could also really use an attitude adjustment. We're here as a society because of mishandled social responsibility. Women have only started to take up their own personal care because they can't rely on established conventions any more. We as individuals likely have not done much, if anything, to contribute to…

No post body was provided.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#384

Post by caeril » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #65

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes.

However, the number of years people complain about societal decay is irrelevant to the question about whether it's happening or not.

The Roman Empire was "going to hell in a handbasket" for centuries prior to 410, according to the social critics of the time. It doesn't make them wrong.

Applying one's personal normalcy bias on timescales of a single lifetime to societal evolution that happens on the scales of tens of generations is rather short-sighted.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#385

Post by twofornone » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

urthor wrote: post #304

justinpombrio wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been more women than men in college in the US since the 80s. It varies from college to college and from subject to subject (e.g. STEM is much more male, MIT more male, humanities-focused colleges more female). A graph from a random internet search result: https://educationalpolicy.org/hello-world/

There's a huge body of education research about this, this has been the case for of years. There's even data from the pre-1900s, especially in the primary school years. Only recently have we stripped away a lot of the sexism however, providing a successful transition to higher education. It all boils down to: Girls are more likely to do their damn homework when the teacher tells them. Therefore they out-perform in fo…

>Only recently have we stripped away a lot of the sexism however, providing a successful transition to higher education.

Is it really so difficult to consider that career preferences are gendered? That millions of years of sexually dimorphic specialization could lead to statistically significant differences in interests, abilities, and desired life outcomes?

The recent popularity of blaming any disparity on {$x}ism really bothers me. Culture and genes influence outcomes at least as much as any external force in the modern world. That goes for gendered differences too.

>girls are more likely to do their damn homework

Also ironic that the people who are so eager to fight against sexism/racism have no qualms about generalizing their scapegoats. But it sort if proves my point: you are willing to acknowledge that males may have intrinsic negative traits which could cause them to underperform, but of course acknowledging the obvious implication that such groups may have innate advantages is forbidden; maybe because doing so would undermine the very underpinnings of the modern progressive push for equality of outcome.

Metrics targeting equal representation among all industries/disciplines are fundamentally flawed. There's no reason to expect such parity if people are truly free to choose their own paths, nordic countries are an example, where gender disparity persists despite an egalitarian culture.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#386

Post by anm89 » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #334

I don't see how we'll be able to make people care about this issue at the current zenith of The Future Is Female zeitgeist in the West. Given the current cultural and moral fashions, I can't think of many things that would be harder to empathize with than the laments of straight working-age men. There are so many more groups that are higher on the oppression totem pole that there's no way anybody will ever make it fa…

Things go in cycles. It won't be this way forever. It may not change until it doesn't matter for you and I though.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#387

Post by ordinaryradical » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

azhu wrote: post #367

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #334

I don't see how we'll be able to make people care about this issue at the current zenith of The Future Is Female zeitgeist in the West. Given the current cultural and moral fashions, I can't think of many things that would be harder to empathize with than the laments of straight working-age men. There are so many more groups that are higher on the oppression totem pole that there's no way anybody will ever make it fa…

I feel you bro. I've felt that same way and I have empathy. You have solid points and a valid perspective. You could also really use an attitude adjustment. We're here as a society because of mishandled social responsibility. Women have only started to take up their own personal care because they can't rely on established conventions any more. We as individuals likely have not done much, if anything, to contribute to…

This is either pitch perfect parody or a truly wild lack of self-awareness. I actually need the /s tag here.

Because replying with the precise tropes of toxic masculinity as a solution to… the problems caused by toxic masculinity, whew.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#388

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 10:59 PM UTC

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #334

I don't see how we'll be able to make people care about this issue at the current zenith of The Future Is Female zeitgeist in the West. Given the current cultural and moral fashions, I can't think of many things that would be harder to empathize with than the laments of straight working-age men. There are so many more groups that are higher on the oppression totem pole that there's no way anybody will ever make it fa…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#389

Post by diordiderot » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 11:00 PM UTC

orange_joe wrote: post #296

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the obesity problem is linked to the fact that many people have to work 60 hours a week to survive and don't have the time/energy to get in shape. Capitalism has taken a large swath of people out of the dating game just due to working to survive.

People work 10% fewer hours now than in the 1960s, but the obesity rate has gone up from 13% in that time period to 36%. The obesity crisis is IMO more related to what we eat, and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEUSA065NRUG

Not having a wife at home to make meals, because all households _need_ dual incomes

10% is what, ~30 minutes less?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#390

Post by nervlord » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 11:00 PM UTC

su6652 wrote: post #378

The only problem I see if that white, straight men are far more likely to be armed and use violence in response to their perceived plight. If I had to pick one group to not be subject to declining economic and romantic opportunities, it would be straight, white men, but only out of fear.

What absolute rubbish. White males commit much much less crime per capita than Hispanic or black males. Fbi statistics demonstrate that with absolute clarity. It's been the case forever and has actually gotten Worse since the 1960s so please spare me your systemic racism argument. How is the country more racist now than the 1960s?

You are a bigot with no empathy and hate in your heart. Please grow as a person.