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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#101

Post by Beltalowda »

ok_dad wrote: post #16
decafninja wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to b…

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.)

I've long considered traditional gender roles of man works and provides income and woman raises kids and cooks to be unfair to both genders and a general issue that affects everyone, and not really a "feminist" issue as such (or rather, not exclusively feminist).

In my country there's been a lot of discussion that a lot of women are working part-time rather than full-time, with many claiming this is horrible and evidence of discrimination. Maybe that plays a part, but it seems to me the real question is "why aren't more men working part-time?" rather than "why aren't more women working full-time?"

And more general: up to a few decades ago it was entirely normal for a single earner to support an entire family and still have money for a yearly holiday. Now that's much harder financially, if not outright impossible. Something really profound changed in our economy with seemingly few people noticing or commenting on it.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#102

Post by babyshake »

UncleMeat wrote: post #77
commandlinefan wrote: post #29

> As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Conversely: as young men's potential future employability rises, their romantic prospects also decline. That is - the men who'll grow up to be stable and reliable have lonely teenage years.

Is this actually true? This feels a bit like a post-facto generalization from specific situations. "I was a nerd and didn't go on dates. Being a nerd got me into software and now I make a lot of money. Therefore people who are on the path to high earning are not getting dates." My experience has been that a lot of the stereotypical jocks ended up in finance and are doing quite well and that software is no longer domi…

A lot of popular kids and jocks end up in management in tech while the loners and kids of immigrants are the ones actually creating the software.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#103

Post by ramesh31 »

philipkglass wrote: post #62
ramesh31 wrote: post #27

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

I agreed with this until the last sentence. If men and women are on an equal footing, why are a good portion of men left without anything useful to contribute? I suppose this could hinge on the definition of "good portion." I personally don't think that a "good portion" of prime working age men or women are left without anything economically useful to contribute. American unemployment is currently low, hiring is up,…

>If men and women are on an equal footing, why are a good portion of men left without anything useful to contribute?

Point being that not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a physicist. There will always be a good portion of the population that really has nothing to contribute economically but their labor. For women, these labor positions are the ones that have survived our transition to a mostly service based economy; healthcare, childcare, cleaning, food service, etc. For men, they mostly have not. The days of a man being able to use his comparative advantage of physical strength to earn above the median wage are long gone.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#104

Post by tmnstr85 »

White, straight, male, 37 with two kids. One who is severely disabled and under the age of 5. In the past couple of years, its become clear to me that I will probably become a caretaker to my daughter at some point in my life. The prospects of keeping a full time job, in my field are quickly changing - I am no longer desired. Doing this in a financial services setting is especially stark because there's no empathy. Its been really rough the past couple of years. I am trying to find my peace with the idea that I've done a good job, I did everything I was supposed to do, but there were forces outside my control that will dictate the future. My wife just made partner at her firm, and I was told by a c level executive, of color, that I'm "no longer part of where the firm culture is headed". I see this issue every day, it gets harder as we get older. As we head towards 2024, that sentiment on the other side of the fence gains momentum from this type of isolation, regardless of race. It will be interesting to see how many men vote in 2024 vs. previous elections.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#105

Post by n4r9 »

rhino369 wrote: post #84
commandlinefan wrote: post #29

> As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Conversely: as young men's potential future employability rises, their romantic prospects also decline. That is - the men who'll grow up to be stable and reliable have lonely teenage years.

A lot of stable and reliable men have really good teenage years. There is definitely an arc-type of socially awkward boys who grow up to be engineers, accountants, etc. But within that group, romantic prospects are positively correlated with employment prospects. An awkward guy w/ a job is better than an awkward guy w/o one.

FYI I think "archetype" is the word you intended.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#106

Post by Zigurd »

ramesh31 wrote: post #27

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

I see why you would conclude that "it's pretty obvious why a good portion of men are now left without anything useful to contribute." It sure looks that way based on the sheer volume of male resentment online. Try commenting on any forum with a female persona and you will be ready to call for mass internment of trolls.

But, the thing is, men are on not just equal footing, but a very advantageous footing especially where men dominate investment decisions. There is no excuse for men not to step up to the challenge of being equals when others carry a heavy disadvantage, still.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#107

Post by frenchy »

decafninja wrote: post #11
frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to b…

I, for one, would like it, and I think I'd like it more than my wife. My personality is well suited to being a stay at home parent. I like chaos, and I like working with my hands. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of reduced-hour programming jobs, and our financial situation isn't such that one of us can be full-time stay-at-home.

Another thing is that it's awkard for breast-feeding women to be away from their babies for long times, and formula comes with its own set of problems.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#108

Post by Beltalowda »

RadixDLT wrote: post #96

Quoted post unavailable.

In what way? I've worked with some people with some fairly, ehm, extreme takes on things, and had a fair share of disagreements, sometimes with some words that were harsher than I thought were professional, but I've never been subjected to or observed anything I'd call close to "bullying".

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#109

Post by giantg2 »

buscoquadnary wrote: post #100
rhino369 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely makes sense. The idea that an 18 year old would start their own household is an artifact from a small period in our history when 18 year olds could easily get an unskilled job that would afford a decent modest lifestyle. But that only really started in the late 40's and was over by the 70's.

You know one thing I find interesting is you specifically call out "unskilled job", which I think has a point but the OP mentions specifically his son studying to be a carpenter that I would consider a "high skilled" job, even if it is blue collar, and then you suggest there was a small period of time when an 18 yo could provide for a family with unskilled labor. I then realized that for much of history up until rece…

I largely agree. My grandfather grew up on a farm, graduated 8th grade, then continued to work the farm while mining coal with the other men in his family. That wasn't uncommon in his time.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#110

Post by worik »

csa wrote: post #44
salawat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal marriage is decreasing. You can draw on more benefits as single from the System. Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states.

> Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states. This cannot be overstated. True even with a prenup.

In civilised jurisdictions these rules apply to unmarried couples too. The amount of economic violence, historically, perpetrated by men over women has been huge.

The worm has turned

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