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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#81

Post by mekal »

ok_dad wrote: post #16
decafninja wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to b…

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

I'm in the same boat as you, but I think it's important to remember another factor besides conditioning. It's much easier to say "I would love to quit" when you have a job than it is to be happy not having a job when you aren't sure if you could actually get one to begin with.

Similarly, if you know you could take someone in a fight, and they challenge you in public...its easier in that case to "take the high road" and walk away than it would be if you knew you would lose the fight, or you weren't confident you would win. The people in the latter case are much more likely to feel shame and/or resentment towards the aggressor later on.

I think with "power" like that its easier to make the best choice in many cases. It's a shame too...I know a few people that are miserable because they don't have a "real job", even though they don't really need one financially. That lack of power keeps them from being happy and choosing the lifestyle that would obviously be best otherwise.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#82

Post by kevinob11 »

I'm a white straight male, grew up middle class near Seattle. I'm now in my mid-30s and have 3 kids. Semi-recently I had an (maybe my first?) experience where I wasn't the favored party in a situation. My kids have made focus more difficult, and I work in an industry (tech consulting) where focus is a big deal, and the idea that I'm not the perfect person for the job was a foreign feeling. I no longer felt "I was made for this" or "I'm perfect for this".

While I hate that things are getting worse for anyone (and want to fix it!), these findings are good reminders for me that almost everyone else has dealt with similar circumstances much more often than I have. Often the cause is out of their control and that they are just trying to make the best of it, with varying results. It gives me good perspective and reminds me that peoples choices / actions include inputs that I'm not exposed to.

That all being said I hope we can find a way to make these situations less common for everyone. I'd settle for quick fixes (adjust taxes, better welfare, etc.), but I'm excited for the societal changes that I hope are the eventual long-term fix.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#83

Post by ketzo »

uejfiweun wrote: post #64

Probably unpopular opinion: men having it tough is actually a good thing for men, if you make the most of it. Yes, in modern times as a man, you pretty much don't have any programs specifically designed to benefit you. And yes, men get shat on by pretty much every corner of society. But it's still possible to succeed in these conditions, and some people most definitely do. And those who were able to find their way an…

Men – and people – should not need to be exceptional just to be happy. Hard times make a few strong men and a lot of very, very miserable ones.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#84

Post by rhino369 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #29

> As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Conversely: as young men's potential future employability rises, their romantic prospects also decline. That is - the men who'll grow up to be stable and reliable have lonely teenage years.

A lot of stable and reliable men have really good teenage years.

There is definitely an arc-type of socially awkward boys who grow up to be engineers, accountants, etc. But within that group, romantic prospects are positively correlated with employment prospects. An awkward guy w/ a job is better than an awkward guy w/o one.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#85

Post by jbay808 »

uejfiweun wrote: post #64

Probably unpopular opinion: men having it tough is actually a good thing for men, if you make the most of it. Yes, in modern times as a man, you pretty much don't have any programs specifically designed to benefit you. And yes, men get shat on by pretty much every corner of society. But it's still possible to succeed in these conditions, and some people most definitely do. And those who were able to find their way an…

> I am very confident in my ability to solve a problem / achieve a goal on my own, and I don't need some special program or exception to the rules in order to succeed.

Picture a distribution, like a bell curve or something.

The programs are meant for the side of that distribution that need it. You can talk about how the other side of the distribution doesn't need the help, but don't lose sight of the fact that many do.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#86

Post by errcorrectcode »

thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

The very rich by ability and the very poor by inability to attain family planning, and everyone else in TX.

I maybe in a skewed population (FAANG) but women are much more aggressive here in urban areas. While I was walking downtown, a woman pulled her Mercedes over in traffic and shouted an offer at me. I thought she was hilarious and bold but not attractive enough.

In the past, this was sometimes a thing too: in 1943, my grandmother (15) decided to have my grandfather (21 - war vet at 17 by lying). Their 70-year marriage was technically illegal too.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#87

Post by rajeshp1986 »

I went to a local college few days back and I noticed that there were more girls than boys. I think part of the reason is due to high college debt many young men are choosing to take jobs and skipping college all together. This will translate to less men in the knowledge based/corporate jobs.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#89

Post by jimmyjazz14 »

lph wrote: post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

I didn't really get the sense that he was placing all the blame on "the wokes" as you put it though that is most certainly a factor in my opinion. The data he points out is relative to the state of things for women in most cases and shows that men are falling behind in dramatic ways. I don't think he is necessarily trying to say its the only issue of the day.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#90

Post by skinkestek »

uejfiweun wrote: post #64

Probably unpopular opinion: men having it tough is actually a good thing for men, if you make the most of it. Yes, in modern times as a man, you pretty much don't have any programs specifically designed to benefit you. And yes, men get shat on by pretty much every corner of society. But it's still possible to succeed in these conditions, and some people most definitely do. And those who were able to find their way an…

Just as long as you know you have succeeded in spite of it all and do not buy into the "almost failed despite being wildly privileged" idea that gets pushed.

(To be clear: I am wildly privileged to live in a Western country now instead of living almost anywhere else at any other time. I'm also generally happy to be a strong and healthy male. My thoughts are best best explained by the fact that 1. all else being equal I'd prefer to recruit a woman rather than a man to the company I work for because that gives me more "social credit" at work 2. Boys systematically do better on anonymous tests, at least in the western world.)

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