Live data from Hacker News

A Lonely Universe

inference-review.com

31–40 of 210 posts

Re: A Lonely Universe

#31
post #16

Fun! But if abiogenesis happened more than once, and we don't see any alternate-root lineages, then we've admitted the possibility that major advances towards complex life can have a resource lock out effect leading to the extinction of alternates; this could apply to any or all of the critical steps towards technological intelligence. e.g. did the evolution of homo sapiens and its subsequent monopolization of earth…

> But if abiogenesis happened more than once, and we don't see any alternate-root lineages, then we've admitted the possibility that major advances towards complex life can have a resource lock out effect leading to the extinction of alternates; this could apply to any or all of the critical steps towards technological intelligence

I have often wondered if this is not exactly what occurred on earth, basically immediately after life first appeared. That direct ancestor to modern humans, maybe not even a real unicellular organism yet, won that very first resource race and extinguished any/all other contenders. That distant ancestor would have suffocated any possibility for carbon-based abiogenesis to occur again, leaving us with the tree of life we have today.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#32

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

Or maybe Von Neumann machines can't be built because they're impractical.

Consider that you need an AI that can deal with a huge range of potential environments, build extraction, processing, and assembly machinery, and do all of this with perfect error correction and oversight. Pretty much eternally.

It's an interesting thought experiment. But as a practical engineering project, it really doesn't sound even remotely credible. Not without appealing to "Yes, but one day..." magic unobtanium technology.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of hard entropy limit on how long complex systems can remain functional and stable. Sooner or later you're going to run out of memory, and if you restart a build process from scratch at each iteration without accumulating information, what have you actually achieved - beyond a rather pointless machine infestation?

Re: A Lonely Universe

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think just the fact the universe hasn't been eaten by Von Neumann machines means we're alone. Or maybe it'd make sense to consider how big the Universe is, how fast it expands and combine it with how very local is our perception of it. If you do that and account for how young our capabilities to hear and see stuff out there actually are, Fermi's paradox doesn't make any sense just like the certainty of…

The fermi paradox makes sense within "just" the milky way, so the size of the entire observable universe or the speed it expands doesn't seem relevant.

"Just the milky way"

You mean the collection of stars that's 100,000 light years across?

How long has life existed on Earth?

Of that time, how long has life on Earth been generating signals that could be detected elsewhere?

How much of the Milky Way has recieved those signals by now?

50,000 light year radius squared (let's favor your argument by calculating the milky way disc as 2D area) = 2.5 billion square light years

Area our signals could have reached in the milky way over the past century of broadcasting: ~10,000 square light years

So the intelligent life here and now, only a fraction of the life that's existed (much of which has had some degree of intelligence) has only reached about 0.0004% of the Milky Way by now, to say nothing for the drop of signal to CMB noise as it propagates.

There's extensive discussion about the fine tuning argument for Earth regarding our gravity/propulsion to even be able to enter outer space, a threshold other intelligent life on a different planet may never be able to cross.

Fermi's Paradox is silly when you dive into the nuances.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#34
The crow experiment as an analogy is so wrong I don't even want to read the rest of the article. It's a misunderstanding of statistics. We have one data point. To use that analogy, it's as if we performed one experiment with one crow once and are trying to deduce the difficulty.

I read a study on HN a couple weeks ago that talked about likelihood of self replicating protein strings forming randomly, and the summary is that it is unlikely for abiogenesis to happen randomly within a volume the size of the observable universe more than once. Now, there could be panspermia, there could be something non random about the process, there could be other types of intelligence, but until you show me an ongoing alien biosphere process I'm convinced it isn't common, and I don't believe we will find intelligent life anywhere we look.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#35

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

Maybe intelligent life isn't so rare, but technologically advanced intelligent life is exceedingly rare? It's possible that there could be planets where life emerged, evolved to an intelligent species that didn't have to compete for resources, maybe there were no large carnivores to worry about, maybe resources are even less scarce than they are here, maybe they developed a very collective culture and thus no concept of war, whatever - some scenario where technology doesn't really develop very far. It would never occur to this species to want to leave their planet to go exploring. They could be quite content to live this way for millions of years. We'd never see any signals from them.

When it comes to questions like the one posed in the fermi paradox we always seem to assume that all intelligent lifeforms would be very much like us with similar drives and culture. But it seems exceedingly unlikely.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#36

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

Perhaps the intelligent life is so rare that we're the first species that exist across the universe and we're destined to reach for the stars - unless of course we manage to annihilate ourselves first. But then, if there's nobody else but us then perhaps all what we experience is just an elaborated simulation of more advanced species - perhaps our ancestors, who decided to keep us and our universe as a kind of memoir, or as some sophisticated experiment.

A future of Star Trek, where the protective veil of some kind of "prime directive" is being lifted as we reach certain level of development as civilisation and then we get a galaxy-wide club membership feels like naive funny fairy tale. It would be of course great if that would happen but it's more likely reality is, or will be way too mundane and unattractive.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#37
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is likely. Always remember that intergalactic travel is exponentially harder than interstellar travel and that is already brutally hard. We need only be among the first in our galaxy to explain the Fermi paradox.

I don't see how there could ever be intergalactic travel.

Theoretically if you could travel very close to the speed of light time dilation would make the trip fairly short. Of course it’s one way since it would take hundreds of thousands to millions of years for everyone else. If you came back you would be returning to a different geological epoch.

Of course the energy requirements are insane and would require some kind of physicists nightmare propulsion system like antimatter rockets. Lose reactor containment and you are instantly converted into plasma and gamma rays. If you hit something the size of a dust particle it will destroy your spacecraft.

A bit hard.

Near light speed is a requirement for intergalactic travel because even solid state machines will not last long enough to make it without time dilation to shorten the trip.

Interstellar travel could theoretically be achieved with 1960s tech. Look up Project Orion. It could even be done with chemical rockets if you could hibernate, greatly extend life span, build a generational ship, or be an AI and just turn yourself off for the trip.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#38
post #6

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

Is it not possible that colonizing a galaxy is simply too hard, no matter what intelligence?

Or it's so easy.

Ants live in cities surrounded by humans, but have no idea what a human is or what humans do, and literally cannot experience - never mind imagine - what a human is, what a city is, what transport networks are, what culture is, what technology is.

Every so often an ant nest is destroyed because it's an irritant, but if the ants notice at all they carry on relatively unthinkingly. There are only other ants, pheromone trails, and food sources. [Other] may register very fleetingly but does not align with any ant concepts or ant goals, and therefore leaves no lasting impression.

Wide differences in intelligence make more advanced lifeforms invisible - not physically but conceptually. Which turns out to amount to the same thing in practice. Even between two species who share the same physical space.

We could be surrounded by a universal or galactic civilisation and we wouldn't know.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how there could ever be intergalactic travel.

Theoretically if you could travel very close to the speed of light time dilation would make the trip fairly short. Of course it’s one way since it would take hundreds of thousands to millions of years for everyone else. If you came back you would be returning to a different geological epoch. Of course the energy requirements are insane and would require some kind of physicists nightmare propulsion system like antimat…

> Theoretically if you could travel very close to the speed of light ... Of course the energy requirements are insane

Yeah, this is why I don't think we'll ever achieve this and I very much doubt other species have or will either. I don't think the incentives are there to expend this kind of energy (and capital) trying to get to another galaxy - especially since it would a very, very long time before anyone would know if the project succeeded (if it would ever be known at all)- there's no success feedback for a project like that. Interstellar travel will be difficult enough and the feedback time there would likely be at least a couple generations (longer depending on where the travel is to).

Re: A Lonely Universe

#40

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

What if civilizations go dark after a century or two of rapid technological progress. Look at what we're doing. The bulk of our data bandwidth is now confined to fiber optics, that leak virtually nothing to outer space. Remaining wireless comms interfere with one another, using ever decreasing power, and are designed to be hard to distinguish from noise. It's like we've enclosed ourselves in a primitive Dyson sphere.

A faint shift in the molecular spectrum of our atmosphere might be telling.

Post reply on HN