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Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

humbledmba.com

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Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#31

> For some personal background, I do come from a financially stable family. My parents could have covered the $16k to help me follow my dreams. But I didn't ask them (and neither did they offer). The financial pressure and responsibility of my startup was to be fully on my shoulders. Even though he wasn't accepting money from his parents, he was implicitly using their financial security to shoulder this risk. If ever…

Credit card debt is, in most states, entirely dischargable in bankruptcy. So while it would be unethical to take on all this debt specifically with the purposes of squandering it, the CC companies are extending you an unsecured loan. It's really not all that bad of an idea, provided you can survive a bankruptcy and a few years of exceptionally poor credit.

isn't that Donald Trump's business model?

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#32
I don't get why everyone is hating on the author for his usage of credit cards. It's not the first time I've heard a story like this, and it's certainly not going to be the last.

I did something similar with an Amex card, and used it to bootstrap the development I couldn't perform myself. As long as you manage the risk and plan accordingly, it's not as bad of a play as it's made out to be.

Also, the author never said anything about bankruptcy, and he seems a man of his word. I didn't get the impression he was going to burn through the cash and then file bankruptcy if it didn't work. In fact, he didn't, and it didn't.

When you have a dream, and you believe in it, you do everything you can to make it work.

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#34
I feel like this is one of those "how to rob a bank" lessons that you find sometimes from old-time thieves. It shows you how to do something to take advantage of the system, definitely a hacker thing to do, but at the same time its very dangerous and often unnecessary. More than one person is reading this article and thinking "hmm..." I think this puts a lot of the "put the house on the line" risk back into startups. Say what you will about the time and effort starting a business takes, in this day and age of venture capital, it is almost stupid to get into that situation. Nonetheless, people have done crazier things, overextended themselves even thinner, and had no contingency plan, and become billionaires. Its all part of the game

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#35
This isn't credit card arbitrage. Let me describe one idea for how Credit Card Arbitrage could work.

You take out a bunch of credit cards, as he describes. Preferably ones with zero interest for the first year, or 6 months. You extract as much cash from them as you can. You put a chunk of that cash in the bank to make minimum payments from, and then you put that cash into an asset that will return more over the next year than the cards will charge.

[EDIT TO ADD: Want to clear up some confusion. In order to arbitrage interest rates, you have to have whatever you buy return more than what you have to pay for the money. There's one factor that people often forget when thinking about interest rates, and that is inflation. Dollars spent to pay off a loan are worth less than dollars you get at the beginning of the loan. This means, the asset you put your money into, needs to return not only enough to cover the interests & fees on the credit cards over the time period, but the monetary inflation rate over the time period. Thus, something that is an inflation hedge is beneficial. This is why I talk about gold below, and later I talk about CDs and even stocks.]

I'd suggest buying gold, or gold miners, or if you're super sophisticated, options on solid gold mining companies. (each of these has increasing leverage to the price of gold.) But it doesn't have to be gold, it just has to be something that is a "no brainer" way to earn a positive return above the rate of the credit card interest.

This may be difficult, and in fact, it should be difficult, because if it were easy the credit card companies would do it instead of loaning the money to you.

Potentially, you could take the money from the credit card company and put it into a CD at the very same bank. This works only if you really have "no interest for one year". Buy a 9 month CD (or better yet a 10 month CD), and then when it matures, pay off the credit card, and you get the interest from the CD for free.

The thing that makes such arbitrage opportunities so valuable is that, because the asset you're buying returns more than the cost of your money, you can scale it up pretty much infinitely.

But this is where things get problematic if you don't cover your downside. When the Bank of Japan was lending money at nearly zero interest, many banks borrowed in japan, converted the money to other currencies, and then bought treasuries of other countries. This is called the carry trade.

In fact, I wish I could start up a bank right now. I'd love to borrow money from the Federal Reserve, which is loaning it out at almost nothing, and buy the best bonds (along with some protective put options) I could find on the market.

A company wants to borrow for capital expansion, it will pay a reasonable interest rate-- say %6. The Federal Reserve is loaning at something like %1. %5 profit, at the only risk of the bond (so protect it with a CDO.) It must be great to be a bank.

If you have a startup you need to fund, and you can get a CD the interest rates right now are about 1.15%. So, I think this doesn't work for arbitrage, because while you may have "zero percent interest" there are going to be some fees that will overwhelm that meager interest rate.

But, if you could get a CD that paid out %6, and could borrow at %1 (on the "zero interest" plans) then you'd only need $400,000 in credit card debt in order to raise $20,000 for your startup!

Realistically, credit card arbitrage doesn't really work too well. If you get something with a higher rate of return, and you use borrowed money to buy it, then that's really investing on margin and not really something you could call "arbitrage". I'm sure it works for some people doing startups.... but isn't really reproducible on a wide scale.

BY the way, if you want access to some of that federal reserve money at cheap rates, at least some brokers are passing it along to their margin customers. Then you can start looking for a solid high yielding company, borrow %50, effectively doubling your yield... don't forget to buy some put options to cover your long position in case it crashes.

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#36
Kudos for him knowing that he was using his CC to fund his startup. I made the mistake of not realizing that I was using my CC to fund my business - I was using them for food, rent, and other things.

A lot of 'regular' businesses fall into the trap of building a lot of short-term debt that isn't really obvious - owing their suppliers, owing their employees, and owing the tax man. When a small hiccup hurts their cash flow, the whole stack of cards comes crumbling down.

Or so I've been told.... :)

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#37
post #16

Is this actually considered arbitrage? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage While the 4th credit card company he applies to has imperfect information about what his credit is (at that point) actually worth, it seems like all the deals are independent.

I actually did credit card arbitrage in one of my first startups. We discovered a niche market where online credit card transactions were charged exorbitant rates for low-volume, non-swipe monthly subscriptions. By taking on the risk ourselves we aggregated many smaller sites, and was able to become a merchant bank ourselves.

That's arbitrage to me.

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#38
I went for the opposite tack when I founded my startup - live with my parents and do all the coding myself - and I would highly, highly recommend that over the credit card approach. My startup also failed. I also felt it was well-worth it for the experience and skills gained. I also found I loved startups and want to get back into them again.

The difference is that when my startup failed, I had money in the bank, no debt, and no particular time limit for finding another source of income. And that gave me options, and options gave me negotiating power. I was able to turn down offers that I felt would be career dead-ends or wouldn't teach me much, and would've even been able to found another startup immediately if the right opportunity hadn't come up. Instead of working 6 months on boring consulting jobs, I was able to spend that 6 months taking a job that taught me things (which has turned into 2.5 years, because the job is still teaching me things).

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#39
I tried this with my first startup. It worked, and my wife and I wound up with a nice little online magazine that did pretty well. Then I got cocky, I tried to do it again but wasn't as careful as the first time. Now I'm digging myself out from under $60k in CC debt. Now I live by 3 before 1, make 3 before you spend 1. We'll see how that works out.

Re: Don't try this at home. How credit card arbitrage funded my first company.

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit card debt is, in most states, entirely dischargable in bankruptcy. So while it would be unethical to take on all this debt specifically with the purposes of squandering it, the CC companies are extending you an unsecured loan. It's really not all that bad of an idea, provided you can survive a bankruptcy and a few years of exceptionally poor credit.

> while it would be unethical to take on all this debt specifically with the purposes of squandering it Actually, in the UK, if they can prove it, it's illegal . Be surprised if that wasn't the same in the West.

I actually worked for a US Bankruptcy Trustee in Florida for about three years. It is illegal here as well.
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