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Thank You, Valve

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Re: Thank You, Valve

#121

Post by oauea »

dagw wrote: post #56
Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

Never trust the client. Trying to install a rootkit on your users' computers won't change the reality of client-server security.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#122

Post by izacus »

sbarre wrote: post #57
izacus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great, now you are stuck with a closed standard, with a closed OS, where you can't run the programs you want. The DRM anticheat drivers turn Linux PCs into a closed standard, closed OS platforms where your software kills itself (even if it's single-player) when you step out of the locked down platform. You're trying to picture a difference where there is none.

There is a huge difference between one narrow-purpose component of your system being closed and a whole system being closed. Come on.

What DRM anticheat measures do is to monitor your whole system for modifications and kill the app if they detect changes. For example, they will make sure that your nVidia (or AMD) driver is one of the whitelisted hashes and hasn't been modified with a wallhack.

This is why Linux users using Wine keep being banned from these platforms - they detect "unusual" runtime environment and ban the players because it doesn't fit into their narrow hash of an "acceptable" system.

It is an outright definition of sealing off your OS from modification.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#123

Post by oblio »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #39
Aeolun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, Valve is still privately owned as far as I know, so wherever it’s going is entirely up to the mind of it’s founders. Edit: Tring to do good, and they made Dota 2?

1v1 sf mid scrub The history of dota is pretty fascinating. As someone who worked on Heroes of Newerth, I can vouch that https://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/ is pretty accurate, based on the reactions of all of my coworkers when it came out. So there's some juicy drama for you. It's true that Valve makes decisions based on money. But it's also true that they execute on them fantastically well. Far better than S2 could…

I can believe almost everything else, and I imagine War3 mod making wasn't the "cleanest" thing ever, but this:

> your first realization was that Abdul was a poor designer

from here: https://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/

is almost categorically false.

I've been playing Dota since... 2004, I was there almost immediately after the Eul/Guinsoo/Neichus stuff. I did research the previous versions a ton, out of curiosity.

There's almost no comparison between Icefrog's additions to Dota and what came before. The other versions were brilliant in their concept but generally very poor in their execution.

Icefrog added more brilliant concepts but primarily greatly cleaned up Dota mechanics and execution. He took an amateurish mod and made it have professional level execution.

Maybe he sucks to work with in a team (really hard to believe, to be honest, considering the development and testing team he built around Dota and the changelogs, OMG, the changelogs; I'd rather think he might suck to work in a on-site team, because his online team management was pretty solid), but criticizing his management/design of Dota for so many years is really silly.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#124

Post by dagw »

rafale wrote: post #102
busterarm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

The setup makes it impractical. You would need a very powerful computer to run it in real time. And it won't tell you about what u can't see. You would need to do the same for audio and game mechanics. Check what a top player can do: https://youtu.be/8Qf5Xlty1Cg I doubt an AI will be anywhere close in the next 10 years.

The AI doesn't have to play the game, just recognise enemy players and calculate how many pixels to move the mouse so that you are aiming at their head. Even the top player you showed could probably have improved his run quite a bit if instead of having to aim he got a guaranteed headshot every time he fired his gun in the vicinity of an enemy.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#125

Post by parkingrift »

busterarm wrote: post #82
dagw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

This is why anti-cheat should be performance based. Build a model based on the way that verified elite players play the game, and their performance. Compare “normal” players against the model and look for outliers. Manually review accounts that look suspicious.

Cheat behavior is obvious. Ridiculous long distance accuracy. Weird movement. Weird map awareness. Weird awareness of other players. Etc.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#126

Post by PragmaticPulp »

busterarm wrote: post #82
dagw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

The average cheater is most certainly not investing in thousands of dollars of hardware to run intense AI models on a second high power machine. These are mostly theoretical hacks.

The average cheater is paying $10-50 for cheat software. You may not like the anti-cheat software, but it works against the most common cheats.

I think they could have an opt-out league that doesn’t require anti-cheat but remains separate. You might be one of the few non-cheaters in there, but at least it would be an option.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#127

Post by yepthatsreality »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #58

I am very excited by the Steam Deck and have paid for my place in the queue (hopefully some time this year). I am a long time desktop Linux user, however I also game and have either had to dual boot, or more recently, game inside a Windows VM because of DRM and unsupported games. The biggest issue I can can see with the Steam Deck, or more specifically, Linux on the Steam Deck, is Microsoft's Game Pass. It simply wil…

First people complain that no one will use Linux because theirs no hardware. Then they complain they can’t use Linux because of the software support. We now have both and now people won’t use Linux because Microsoft acquired studio’s games will only run on Windows? That moving goal post doesn’t look good for the Switch or PlayStation platforms then.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#128

Post by nextaccountic »

sbarre wrote: post #68
Rooster61 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have. Many times. Yes, its a bit of a bummer. No, it still doesn't justify Tencent being able to see more about what is going on in my machine better than I can. Video games are a hobby for 99% of people out there, including myself. I can do without a plaything if it means not handing over the keys of the computer I built with my own hands to nefarious actors. That is FAR AND AWAY more important to me, and I'd hope…

Wild how this turned from "I don't want a game-related kernel-level driver in my system" to "I don't want China spying on me" in one reply. You lost me there to be honest, if you think the "true" purpose of anti-cheat drivers is for a foreign power to spy on us boring ordinary uninteresting people. But you are correct in saying that it's a personal choice for everyone to make for themselves, based on how much they va…

> spy on us boring ordinary uninteresting people.

People said the same thing about NSA spying, until the Snowden leaks.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#129

Post by busterarm »

dagw wrote: post #124
rafale wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The setup makes it impractical. You would need a very powerful computer to run it in real time. And it won't tell you about what u can't see. You would need to do the same for audio and game mechanics. Check what a top player can do: https://youtu.be/8Qf5Xlty1Cg I doubt an AI will be anywhere close in the next 10 years.

The AI doesn't have to play the game, just recognise enemy players and calculate how many pixels to move the mouse so that you are aiming at their head. Even the top player you showed could probably have improved his run quite a bit if instead of having to aim he got a guaranteed headshot every time he fired his gun in the vicinity of an enemy.

Cheats like this are actually ruining high risk/reward stake games like Escape From Tarkov & Hunt: Showdown.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#130

Post by throwawayvibes »

erwincoumans wrote: post #14

And damn Valve for not supporting a 64 bit Linux Steam client. Having to mess with installing 32bit OpenGL drivers just for Valve, sometimes messing up the installation left a bad taste. At least give users the option to pick either 32bit or 64bit client. I'm sure many would happily drop 32bit games support for that. And people who want 32bit games pick the 32bit client. https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-lin…

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