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Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

frenchpress.thedispatch.com

171–180 of 366 posts

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#171

I think censorship actually could help us in a huge way back to cultural health; start censoring big data, rage cycle algorithms, sexploitation, advertising. Then on top of that giving people independent, client-based, advanced AI powered tools en masse, and making sure they know how to use them and why, for accurate elected censorship on their own devices of things they personally find detrimental to their mental he…

I'm a big freedom of speech person, and actually I agree with the basics of your point.

Client based tools - that the client actually controls - are the best way to fight spam but not engage in censorship. Let people tune to their preferences.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but I think an important point to add is, that this is why it is dangerous to have the most import forums be advertising driven. Stephen Douglas spoke from a literal podium (when he wasn't prevented from doing so by an angry mob). There were multiple newspapers in most cities, and each part of the political spectrum had one (prominent abolitionists were often editors). By crafting a society wherein…

Yeah totally totally. But then, its very funny to me that some of the people who complain the most about the censorship of "Right Wing" content by leftist big tech, are also, violently, over-my-dead-body, opposed to many kinds of community/government/centrally-owned collectivist platforms that wouldn't be under the influence of advertising. The Libertarian platforms that we have are the way they are precisely because…

The government has a pretty bad history of free speech.

My preference would be many small communities that have different support models. Let some communities be ad driven, others pay to subscribe, others yet donation based. These all have pros and cons.

The mistake is thinking there is a single solution.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just funding - content is often removed because its perceived as unpalatable to advertisers and payment processors. This is the way the modern web which we all made, works.

It's also removed because the content is abhorrible, or beginning to push the boundires to make the previous abhorrible content seem palatable. The assumption that users cannot see or understand the slide towards abhorrent content is incorrect.

Or the content was fine when published and cultural norms have changed...

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#174

One major distinction this glosses over is the difference between making it so you can't read something (e.g., banning it), and making it so you aren't required to read something (e.g., removing it from the curriculum). Only the former is censorship.

I think we really need to have a “who controls the curriculum” conversation. When I was a teacher, we could chose from whatever the books the school had a ton of lying around. Not a good way to make a selection.

At the same time, people are freaking out when parents want a say I what books their children are evaluated on.

If it was up to me, we’d focus on the classics: Homer, Virgil, Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, Dostoyevsky, etc.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#175
post #139

I have a foreign wife and it really drives home one truth: America is a very nuanced place. We have this idea of almost unlimited free speech. Which sounds great, but in practice, it is not really true. Because ultimately, Americans do not have equal rights. We see this over and over in different aspects of society. The Frederick Douglas example from Boston in the article is a great example of why free speech is good…

I’m a bit confused. Is your wife from a more less equal/free place than America?

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#176
post #18

The rants about "cancel culture" from the US right are hilarious, given their long history of boycotts of brands they dislike and escalating hate and fear for everything up to actual book burnings of material like Harry Potter. I'm not saying that the accusations of cancel culture are unfounded, I'm saying they are wildly hypocritical. (It's good that efforts at censorship on the right are raised in the article as a…

I think there would by hypocrisy if you had the same people who supported censorship in the past now opposing it, though even then it begs the question of whether that is hypocrisy or simply an evolution of views. But as for parties, in the US there are, for all intents and purposes, only two parties. And as the views of society change, these parties change out of necessity. To give another example, as recently as 20…

> It's not really hypocrisy so much as the fact that in order to maintain electoral dominance, the parties need to adopt to society. They (the parties) can then do the mental gymnastics to rationalize on their platforms how big war and surveillance is small government, or how censorship is liberal, afterwards.

This is a handwaving claim about "motivation" ("in order to maintain electoral dominance"), when the only thing for which there is much evidence for is the change of thinking. Do you find it so unbelievable that a bunch of people might, en masse, change their minds about gay marriage? Do you find it so unbelievable that a bunch of people might change their minds about wholewheat bread? Jogging? Mixed-race marriage? What is the reason why you (cynically) assume that the change is motivated simply by electoral politics?

> I could illustrate this with details, but it's much easier to just use an example. Abraham Lincoln was a republican, and every single confederate state was democrat. The transition from democrats becoming republicans and vice versa is something [ ... ]

Instead of taking the easy way out and focusing merely on a label swap, I would suggest you check the way political positions did and did not change during "party swapping" periods. It's not much of a transition if everyone's actual opinions remain substantively the same, but they just swap labels.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a gray area at all. Public schools are a public service paid for by tax dollars. The government excluding certain things from the curriculum doesn’t implicate freedom of speech any more than it excluding certain bus routes implicates freedom of movement.

Forced curriculum on students, at all, is no different than re-education camps; state sponsored indoctrination that both political parties (currently) support. All education should be consensual

You're essentially saying school vouchers, and then the government doesn't choose the curriculum at private schools.

In a public school there isn't anyone else there to choose the curriculum. Everyone there is a government employee.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#178
The application of censorship itself, not what is being censored, is the main symptom of the declining cultural health. The mentality that there are so universally wrong and right things that the right ones must be forced upon any mind, no matter the context, and the wrong ones must be extinguished no matter the context.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#179

I believe in freedom of speech. What I do not believe in is freedom of mass speech. Your responsibility to the truth should increase in line with your reach. Have 1000 followers in twitter and want to talk about starting the next holocaust? Great, say whatever. A million followers? Yeah, that’s a problem. I don’t know how this gets enforced, but we simply cannot give every lunatic a megaphone.

> I believe in freedom of speech. > (...) we simply cannot give every lunatic a megaphone. It appears that you do not, in fact, believe in freedom of speech. Being heard is the point of speech.

You may or may not have noticed that you can be heard without a megaphone. The purpose of a megaphone is not just "to be heard", but to increase your audibility in specific situations. Just as "freedom of speech" does not include the "right to cry "Fire!" in a crowded theater", it isn't terribly obvious that it includes the right to be heard in situations where you can only be heard with a megaphone.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#180

One major distinction this glosses over is the difference between making it so you can't read something (e.g., banning it), and making it so you aren't required to read something (e.g., removing it from the curriculum). Only the former is censorship.

And then there is the new “cancel culture” that does not target the speech itself, but the reputation of the author. By using horrific accusations and smears, the author’s reputation is destroyed, so that people don’t want to hear the speech anymore, based on the lies they heard about the author.
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