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Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

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Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#51

If you’re like me and somehow missed out that there’s an significant mesh of neurons in your guts that’s capable of independent neurotransmitter release, you should look up the enteric nervous system. Intuitively, at least, it seems to make sense of all the ‘gut’ connections to mood.

It's been described as a "cat's brain" equivalent of neurons. Largely seems attached to regulating various rhythms of the gut, but who knows what computations it could be influencing.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#52
post #29

Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested!

At the current pace of research and studies, when do you think we could expect to see something come to 'market' that could be used - first as a diagnosis and then as a treatment/medication/technique. As someone with IBS - right now I feel like there is no clear 'problem' defined for it. You are just categorized by the doctor (Rome 3 or whatever) and people go through various tests, medications, non-fda approved stuf…

There are a variety of strategies being pursued to make pharmaceutical products out of microbiome research. Broadly those are: 1: "bugs as drugs" - genetically engineered microbes that perform some function. The idea here is that having the microbe in situ performing some function will be a much better way to administer a particular compound (or set of compounds), or remove a compound, than a traditional pharmaceutical. Large pharma companies have studied phenylketonuria as a metabolic disease for which the bugs as drugs approach would be great. Find a microbe that consumes phenlyalanine at a high rate and administer it at high levels (or get it to stably engraft in the host) and you have a treatment that would be vastly better than current dietary regimes. 2: "community engineering" - this takes many forms from fecal transplant, to trying to engraft a certain small cocktail of strains, to altering what the in situ community is doing by feeding a probiotic. The idea here is that there are tens of thousands of metabolites that microbes are producing in the gut, and by balancing or tailoring the set of metabolites that are made, you can improve health. Fecal transplants have good data for clearing recurrent C. diff in phase III clinical trials - this is the best developed of the microbial therapeutic strategies currently. Everything else is phase I or before. 3: "microbial natural products" - this is the world I work in (shameless self-promotion - if you want to come work at a very early stage microbiome startup email me at will@interface.bio). The idea here is to find the particular chemicals/metabolites that microbes make that have positive influences on our physiology. Most research here is focused on immune conditions, metabolic syndrome/dietary stuff, though there is increasing interest in depression and other conditions.

At a broad scale, I would say it will be 1-2 years before fecal transplants receive approval as a therapy for recurrent C. diff infection, at least 5 years before a bug-as-drug will be available, and at least 7 years before a microbe-derived natural product is on the market as a pharmaceutical. It takes an incredible amount of work to get from these associational studies to a pharma-grade product.

In the interim, I think there will continue to be a bunch of diagnostics and probiotics companies that (IMO) are bordering on absolute nonsense. There is very little predictive value to the tests supplied by most of these companies, and the data on probiotic efficacy is bad in humans. There is good evidence of probiotic and prebiotic effectiveness in animal husbandry (e.g. fish and livestock) but the data just aren't there in humans.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#53

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

Rather than using these processed foods, one should provide the gut microbiome with “food” in the form of fiber from whole plant foods, i.e. not ‘fiber’ supplements like Metamucil.

Lots of accessible information can be found at https://nutritionfacts.org.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#54

Great to see the gut brain axis becoming more well known in medicine. Less than 10 years ago it was considered near pseudoscience to consider that the gut could actually influence the brain. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4367209/#:~:tex... . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut%E2%80%93brain_axis

No post body was provided.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#55
post #29

Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested!

At the current pace of research and studies, when do you think we could expect to see something come to 'market' that could be used - first as a diagnosis and then as a treatment/medication/technique. As someone with IBS - right now I feel like there is no clear 'problem' defined for it. You are just categorized by the doctor (Rome 3 or whatever) and people go through various tests, medications, non-fda approved stuf…

Also have an IBS diagnosis.

Had a great doctor that helped me get started, after many that did a shoddy job, and this has been my experience as well.

Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what works and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts.

I'd love to know when the science is going to start catching up. Especially since I think it'll be interesting to find out if something has been added to our diets that's causing an increase in intolerance over the last decade+.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#56
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder which gut bacteria make me crave cheap Mac and Cheese...

It seems like you are joking, but many of the fecal transplant patients report their food preferences changing, sometimes dramatically.

Half joking. I do wonder about how the bacteria influences cravings, and if sometimes a craving means I'm missing some kind of vitamin/mineral.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#57
post #27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal, completely unsubstantiated take is: your diet allows certain bacteria to thrive (or not). It’s less about trying to avoid the bad ones and more about trying to nurture the good ones. One incredible thing you can do for your gut is eat more fiber; which the vast majority of Americans don’t. Try psyllium husk powder (the stuff in Metamucil). Eat less refined sugar and saturated fat; eat more raw and fermen…

That is as may be, however, this study shows that removing that bacteria helps with mood disorder. And, there is no evidence that diet gives you this bacteria. Nor that it can help remove this one, either. That is, discussion of diet is a bit of a non sequitur. Not wrong, but also not necessarily relevant.

The paper is titled “ Combined effects of host genetics *and diet* on human gut microbiota and incident disease…” (emphasis mine). Dairy (and the way some people process it, because of genetics) was shown to influence levels of certain bacteria.

The study also does not show that removing Morganella resolved depression; the study did not attempt to remove it, and a researcher is quoted as saying it’s not clear how one would do so (last line of the article):

> But it’s less clear how Morganella could be eliminated from the gut to relieve symptoms. “That’s a bit more challenging.”

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#58

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

I've come across plenty of evidence in the literature but there are lot of variables that can prevent any positive effects from taking place. If you're taking probiotic supplements in isolation and the rest of your diet is suboptimal in terms of bacteria-friendly nutrients, it's unlikely that you'll get results. It could be the case that many people are throwing money away if they're taking probiotic supplements without addressing their diet and lifestyle.

There's so much variety between people, one formulation for one person might work well for one person but have negative effects on another even if they have a supportive diet and lifestyle. People might simply have to trial multiple formulas that have the right mix of strains before they find one that works for them.

Prebiotic foods seem to have more consistent results on gut health, according to some studies.

(not medical/health advice disclaimer)

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Kimchi if you're into Korean food.

Do you have an easy to make recipe?

I use a variant of Emmymade's variant of Maangchi's recipe. It works really well.

Rinsed pickle jars work great, a head of Napa cabbage usually fills about 2+1/2 ~ 3 jars. If you're not into high spicy, dial back the red pepper by about half, for your first try. If you don't like funky, skip the fish sauce or any seafood component, I always do this so that the flavor won't clash with some dishes, you can always add fish sauce to a dish but you can't remove it.

I ferment it for about 3 days at about 65 ~ 68 degrees(f), then into the fridge. It keeps indefinitely but is best within a few months.

Do not bring it into work, just as you would not microwave fish at work. The aroma is very much not to everyone's preference, even when made without seafood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaoA7SKN0g0 https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/easy-kimchi

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