What’s so hard about understanding consciousness? • Hacker News Board

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#251

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

p_noumenon wrote: post #250

contravariant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if consciousness is indeed an illusion then that would at least explain why it's so hard to understand. Or rather it may not be that it's hard to understand but understanding an illusion usually means dispelling it, which is problematic when that illusion is consciousness. Then again claiming something is an illusion is usually less than helpful. Colour is an illusion of sorts (or a qualia if we're being te…

Consciousness is literally the only thing which can't be an illusion, because it's through consciousness that illusions are perceived in the first place. Cogito ergo sum; you can doubt what you are experiencing as much as you like, maybe it's a dream, maybe it's a simulation, maybe there's an evil demon deceiving you through magical means, but you can't doubt the fact that you are experiencing at all, even doubt itse…

[deleted]

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#252

Post by CallidusAsinus » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #244

CallidusAsinus wrote: post #239

In my experience, when reading about consciousness there are a couple types of claims you should be cautious of: 1) Claims that the causes of consciousness can be easily explained. As far as I can tell, they can't. Usually these explanations use the word "emergent" a lot, and tend to be linguistically impenetrable. Often more poetic than scientific when scrutinized closely. 2) Claims that consciousness doesn't exist.…

I suppose if consciousness is indeed an illusion then that would at least explain why it's so hard to understand. Or rather it may not be that it's hard to understand but understanding an illusion usually means dispelling it, which is problematic when that illusion is consciousness. Then again claiming something is an illusion is usually less than helpful. Colour is an illusion of sorts (or a qualia if we're being te…

Precisely. There seems to be much debate about consciousness and what it is, but much of it is often unhelpful.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#253

Post by CallidusAsinus » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

p_noumenon wrote: post #250

contravariant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if consciousness is indeed an illusion then that would at least explain why it's so hard to understand. Or rather it may not be that it's hard to understand but understanding an illusion usually means dispelling it, which is problematic when that illusion is consciousness. Then again claiming something is an illusion is usually less than helpful. Colour is an illusion of sorts (or a qualia if we're being te…

Consciousness is literally the only thing which can't be an illusion, because it's through consciousness that illusions are perceived in the first place. Cogito ergo sum; you can doubt what you are experiencing as much as you like, maybe it's a dream, maybe it's a simulation, maybe there's an evil demon deceiving you through magical means, but you can't doubt the fact that you are experiencing at all, even doubt itse…

Agreed. "I think therefore I am" is still foundational, last I heard.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#254

Post by Hokusai » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

Osiris wrote: post #196

I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and a common submission technique is to cut off blood flow to the brain (known as a blood choke). I've lost consciousness twice after being put into a blood choke. The experience of regaining consciousness is visceral. For those that haven't experienced it, it's very much like a turning on a computer. Initially, your brain does not (or cannot) process input like vision, sound, touch, etc. Slo…

Fainting works in reverse for me. Everything becomes harder to understand, sound becomes muffled like in low motion, vision starts to fade until you are in total darkness. And it's not similar at all to fall asleep, it's quite scary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_syncope

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#255

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #246

It's hard to understand consciousness, but it's not hard to understand why it's hard to understand consciousness. The problem is we are trying to understand consciousness by using consciousness. We can't step outside of it. Just like you can't directly look at your own eyes. You can see them in a mirror, and you can infer properties of consciousness by observing external phenomena, but you can't directly experience i…

I'm no philosopher but feel the same way, the most advanced technology and thinking we have still has to be processed and understood by our own consciousness. It reminds me of the brain-in-a-vat problem. If you ever discovered you were actually just a simulation then the simulation would be paused, the bug fixed, and restarted. There's only so much that can be done with the perception available to us.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#256

Post by mensetmanusman » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

“ Consciousness is simpler than we make it. There’s no hard problem. ”

Certainly the hard problem goes away when you define it to be simpler.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#257

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #26

zubspace wrote: post #23

What I find fascinating about consciousness is that it seems to be bound to your location. But how and why? Why are you inside of your body and not in someone elses? The article poses this question, but leaves it unanswered. For me it begs the question: If conscousness is bound to a location, is it possible to transfer consciousness from one entity to another? Is there some kind of thing we did not yet detect? What h…

This is only fascinating if you refuse to accept a non-supernatural or non-metaphysical definition of consciousness. Otherwise, most of these questions become trivial when consciousness is considered as a physical, biological process bound to the brain. Why is consciousness bound to a person's location? Because their brain is bound inside their skull. Why are you inside your body and not someone else's? Because your…

It's pretty straightforward to follow when consciousness ends, with death. In my mind, a harder question is when does it begin? After one cell, two cells, a trillion cells? If a scientist can pin down the moment it starts then that may lead to more progress on the other questions.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#258

Post by mensetmanusman » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #195

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #93

Like Dennett in "Consciousness Explained", both of these authors seem almost entirely focused on what we are conscious of rather than the fact that we are conscious of anything at all. Their descriptions of their work are all centered on the question of what it is that we actually experience. This is is a fascinating question, and entirely worthy of investigation. But it is not the same question as: how is it possibl…

> But it is not the same question as: how is it possible that we have any experience at all? Let me send this ball straight back to you. In the morning when you wake up what happens? You might take something to eat. How would you find the kitchen, how would you recognise the food, or even know you need it? Of course, you are conscious. That's how. It is possible to be conscious because otherwise your body wouldn't be…

“ It is possible to be conscious because otherwise your body wouldn't be able to survive.”

False, we can program a roomba to seek out electricity to ‘survive’. E.g. zombies

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#259

Post by rland » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

Osiris wrote: post #196

I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and a common submission technique is to cut off blood flow to the brain (known as a blood choke). I've lost consciousness twice after being put into a blood choke. The experience of regaining consciousness is visceral. For those that haven't experienced it, it's very much like a turning on a computer. Initially, your brain does not (or cannot) process input like vision, sound, touch, etc. Slo…

I've had the same, but in the opposite direction -- and then back again -- from hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). Over a much longer time period (several hours). Craziest thing I have ever experienced.

Basically, when you have hypoglycemia, you lose "fine" things first, and you sort of lose things in order, from "fine" (picking things up, balancing, seeing small details) towards "coarse" (talking, walking) and then of course to very "coarse" things, like being able to wake up/see.

And the physical symptoms are exactly mirrored by the mental symptoms. "fine" mental things are like the ability to formulate a complex thought with a lot of abstraction: do a math problem, talk about the future or the past, etc. "Coarser things" are like being able to think verbally or interpret the basic meaning of things -- like, what is that thing over there called? Then, you lose extremely "course" things, like being able to reason at all about what is going on in the world around you.

Oddly enough, the last thing that goes is emotion. Emotion is the baseline of how every piece of context is categorized. Things feel good or they feel bad at a level far below anything resembling what they are. At a level below speaking, having distinct thoughts about distinct objects or people, having any sense of time, place, or meaning. Emotion is always there.

It really is impossible to articulate, because words are a complete fiction.

I wish everyone could go through that, because it really makes you realize the fiction of your own "self" as a real thing.

Re: What’s so hard about understanding consciousness?

#260

Post by mensetmanusman » Fri, Feb 04, 2022, 9:36 PM UTC

abletonlive wrote: post #222

Dylan16807 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think it's possible to seek nutrients without having experiences?

I don't believe it is. This is the problem w/ the philosophical zombies, they are self defeating examples and can't exist in anything but a thought experiment. The fact that you're seeking nutrients at all means you can distinguish between sensory input, and therefore are experiencing something. If you can't distinguish between sensory input, then you are not experiencing anything. How can you be an effective seeker…

There are chemical reactions that follow gradients in chemical potential to self sustain and survive from our standpoint. Not sure one would argue that the chemical reaction has consciousness.