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Amazon Pip Horror Story

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Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#471
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the justification for an attrition target? It seems such a weird thing to want your staff to leave.

The devils advocate answer: Statistically, some of your employees probably aren’t good enough to be worth employing. But managers are human, hard conversations are hard, there are lots of incentives to not manage those people out. By having an attrition target and forcing people to cut the bottom 10%, you basically skip over the soft fuzzy human factors keeping people around, and instead fall back to the statistical…

There is no reason to believe that the lowest 10% performers are the same as the 10% put on PIP/forced attrition.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon vs Amazon on Blind

Exactly. I’ve been here for two years, not a long time by any means, and I don’t personally know a single instance of anyone getting pipped. I’ve never felt pressured to work overtime, haven’t had to race to meet an unreasonable deadline, and I’ve been rated exceeds on both of the performance evals I’ve been though. The Amazon I’ve experienced is much different than the one I read about before joining.

It can be drastically different from team to team.

After I joined Amazon in 2007, I referred a friend from Uni who joined a few years later.

I had a fairly laid back experience - after a good start, I became depressed and burned out, but somehow none of my managers seemed to care all that much since I was at least getting some stuff done, until I finally got put on a PIP several years in - which I think was probably deserved, although the handling around it was crap. And even then, when that manager moved to a new team, my new manager told me I was doing fine and not to worry about it.

My friend, on the other hand, who was the most diligent and hard working of my entire friends group in Uni, was assigned to a different team a few desks over. She fell afoul of stack ranking (the idea that you should rank everybody in a team and fire the worst) and was pressured until she quit.

I also heard a bunch of horror stories from devs across the company - unreasonable deadlines, regular Sev-2s and firefighting when on-call, a manager evading blame for a disastrous project launch and dropping it all on one engineer.

I think the main problem that I saw was that there wasn't much training for managers on how to be a good manager, and bad managers never seemed to face consequences.

I finally quit after eight years (funnily enough, after ending up working for the manager who made my friend quit) and I'm a hell of a lot happier nowadays. Amusingly, I'm still facing tight deadlines and sometimes random overtime, but I have a great boss who is willing to fight against these things for me, and that makes a big difference.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#473
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may/may not learn, but living in situations like the OP was put in is horrible. Every day feels like hell, and if you burn out it may take years to recover.

This is my personal experience, which is why I'd advise people not to go through with the above thought experiment. Then again, I keep interviewing people with 5-10 years of experience, who will go something like this: > How would you manage a server? (leaving out a ton of context about what it means to "manage a server") > Very easy, SSH connection is very fast, reliable, ... > Awesome, love me some SSH, how about 5…

I updated a custom package on 500 ESX servers using ssh. Just kicked it off asynchronously, used ssh to execute a single command and not get an interactive terminal, and logged the results to check for failures. I was in the support org, so I was pretty constrained on tool choice.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Full stack developer and ML engineer seem like full positions, considering he listed internships specifically in his prior experience as explicit internships. Also he has a background in bio, and managed to land a full stack and ML engineer positions, implying he is self taught, and therefore should be already fairly intelligent...but he decided to go get his MS in CS, without even doing any research project and…

> If you are that smart to have a background in bio, and land the jobs that he did, your career would look very different. Is that really so impressive? Bio people do a lot of coding, and good dev practices can be learned on the job. ML is probably also something he played with during his studies. Full stack + some ML experience is probably enough for a junior ML engineer.

Sure but then having those jobs for 3 months at a time still looks shady

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#475
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of see that, but it completely ignores the cost of hiring (financial and in lost productivity in the team that has to onboard the new hire) and the loss of knowledge and experience from firing as well.

For sure. It's a good example of POSIWID: The Purpose Of the System Is What It Does. If the system ignores things like financial costs and productivity, then the purpose of the system is something else. What it is good for in my view is making managers look and feel tough and establishing a culture of fear that is so necessary for hierarchical power structures. Power/status hierarchies are a common trait for most pri…

Amazon Primate

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#478
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devils advocate answer: Statistically, some of your employees probably aren’t good enough to be worth employing. But managers are human, hard conversations are hard, there are lots of incentives to not manage those people out. By having an attrition target and forcing people to cut the bottom 10%, you basically skip over the soft fuzzy human factors keeping people around, and instead fall back to the statistical…

That only applies if the bad employees are uniformly distributed amongst all teams in the company. Otherwise it makes more sense to chop the worst 10% teams .

W. Edwards Deming posited that management was responsible for more than 85% of the causes of variation. If this is true, I modestly suggest replacing the CEO in roughly 4 out of every 5 months.

(Somehow stack ranking logic never gets applied that way.)

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#479
post #139

This comment killed me : Will Ye Will Ye Engineering @ Cohere (cohere.io) 5mo Back when I worked at Amazon as a software engineer, the CRAZIEST thing happened to me. Here’s the story… I was working from home with my girlfriend (at the time), when suddenly I get an urgent ping from my coworker: “Our service is experiencing a SEV 2! We need all hands on deck!” Uh oh, our team’s application has gone down! However, as I…

>taught me lessons I’ll never forget. Don't date women that are easily confused with Bezos in drag?

Hey man, don't kink shame!

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#480

I've been an Amazon SDE and an Amazon SDM. I enjoyed my time as an SDE, luckily free from these horror stories. After having been an SDM, I understand how these horror stories can form. Generally, Amazon has two minds about performance management. In written documentation, it's all about whether your reports meet the role guidelines. The written documentation is solid. They share how to evaluate people objectively an…

> As a manager, you get verbal (never written) lashings from your manager and skip manager to put the lowest performers on performance plans that ensure that any attrition counts. As soon as you capitulate, your lowest performer is now considered a low performer. Clearly, I'm preaching to the choir here, but... I am constantly amazed at companies that do this. Effectively, they're incentivizing their workers to sabot…

>Long term, that seems like a fairly straightforward way to make sure you get poor performance out of your workers.

End result being snakes, backstabbers, and sociopaths rise to the top of the chains. Engineering is a collaborative effort so it speaks to the culture of AMZN how they incentivize this nonsense.

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