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Amazon Pip Horror Story

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Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#351
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to be paid based on how valuable my work is to the employer, not the cost of living wherever I happen to be or even my personal financial needs.

Sure, so do I, but when I tell my manager I'm worth X amount, he'll say that's just not where local salaries are at for my job category and responsibility. Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask. I mean, if a person is able to extract 700€ per day, kudos to them but that's still above the 90th percentile of senior developers in Europe.

> Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask.

They can attempt to prove it.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#352
post #311

The pip quota is a HUGE perverse incentive here. Choosing someone to put on pip is hard because it is in manager's best interest to protect their core team from pip. So if someone is too good for your team, you put them on pip. They are going to leave anyway, so putting them on pip does the least damage to your team. The other pathological result is hiring dummies just to put them on pip, again protecting the core te…

> So if someone is too good for your team, you put them on pip. They are going to leave anyway, so putting them on pip does the least damage to your team. This sounds like a lie people tell themselves after being PIP’d. Engineers have an average tenure of 1.8 years. You can’t guarantee you’ll hold together anything. No manager PIPs someone for just being TOO good. It’s already difficult enough to find competent peopl…

^ found the boss of the guy in the post

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#353
I've been an Amazon SDE and an Amazon SDM. I enjoyed my time as an SDE, luckily free from these horror stories. After having been an SDM, I understand how these horror stories can form.

Generally, Amazon has two minds about performance management. In written documentation, it's all about whether your reports meet the role guidelines. The written documentation is solid. They share how to evaluate people objectively and how to minimize bias. Verbally, it's all about numbers and probability. The organization wants X number of people to leave this year, to do that they want Y number of people in performance improvement plans.

There is an intense pressure to force a certain amount of attrition each year. While Amazon may claim stack ranking doesn't exist, Amazon uses rating and calibration mechanisms to learn who you think as a manager are your lowest performers. As a manager, you get verbal (never written) lashings from your manager and skip manager to put the lowest performers on performance plans that ensure that any attrition counts. As soon as you capitulate, your lowest performer is now considered a low performer.

As an SDM, I wanted to maintain the illusion of great Amazon culture for my team. Behind the scenes, I spent a lot of time advocating for my team and trying to poke holes in the performance ratings of other teams. It was exhausting. There are certainly a lot of shortcuts I could have taken like putting potential internal transfers on performance management, but did not. I feel bad for the LinkedIn poster here, I think he had a lazy manager.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#354
I spent almost a decade at Amazon. Their system for removing low performers has two key flaws.

First, the mandatory minimums. If an org is full of superstars, the org still has to ensure it has at least X% turnover per year, so a superstar has to go. Usually well-performing devs whose manager wasn't skilled enough to convince the larger group that all of their people are superstars.

It's cruel, unfair, and harms the company far more than it has ever helped them.

The second problem is that sociopaths can and do abuse it. There isn't supposed to be a way for a manager to fire someone on a PIP when they ask for a transfer. There's also at least one manager in the Toronto office who openly brags that he does it. He's been there a long time, and the devs warn each other not to go work for that guy if you value your job.

Being a sociopath is not a requirement to become a senior leader at Amazon, but the qualities of a sociopath strongly overlap with the qualities it takes to get those promotions. So naturally, the systems in place are designed to favour sociopath behaviours. There is no system to try to identify and remove such people who abuse the PIP system, because the people in charge would never want such a system.

Kind of glad I left. When I chose which offer to take, I decided to turn down a much higher paying offer because "That company feels too much like Amazon".

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#355
I took one Amazon interview for an engineering manager role. Literally all they wanted to talk about was PIPs.

I’ve been an EM for a while. I have a lot I can discuss on a lot of different topics.

Nope. All they wanted to hear about was PIPs. I said I’d never had to do that, the goal after all, is to help people improve before it comes to that.

The guy explained that PIPs are a very large part of what their EMs do and are heavily emphasized in the interview process.

I politely declined round two.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#356
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if someone is too good for your team, you put them on pip. They are going to leave anyway, so putting them on pip does the least damage to your team. This sounds like a lie people tell themselves after being PIP’d. Engineers have an average tenure of 1.8 years. You can’t guarantee you’ll hold together anything. No manager PIPs someone for just being TOO good. It’s already difficult enough to find competent peopl…

> Engineers have an average tenure of 1.8 years. You can’t guarantee you’ll hold together anything. No manager PIPs someone for just being TOO good. It’s already difficult enough to find competent people. Source?

This is a secondary source: https://buffer.com/resources/employee-tenure/#employeetenure...

The original source from Paysa seems to be down (the entire site looks down).

Edit: It's all employees, not just engineers, but I don't think engineers would differ too much.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#359

I've been an Amazon SDE and an Amazon SDM. I enjoyed my time as an SDE, luckily free from these horror stories. After having been an SDM, I understand how these horror stories can form. Generally, Amazon has two minds about performance management. In written documentation, it's all about whether your reports meet the role guidelines. The written documentation is solid. They share how to evaluate people objectively an…

What's the justification for an attrition target? It seems such a weird thing to want your staff to leave.
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