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Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

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Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#41

Post by PeterisP »

chasil wrote: post #31
ddulaney wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is clean. Everybody must judge. Not only is it possible for an American to condemn abuse of children, they have a moral duty to do so. It is also a requirement that China hold America to account for what America and Americans have done, in the past and today. But any news outlet has not only a right but a duty to denounce human rights abuses everywhere.

If we hold the United States to account, then how far back should that go? Prior to the U.S. government, smallpox was aggressively dispersed in the Americas, removing 90% of the native population. Are we willing to indict Spain? If not, why not? I am no more guilty than they. (I have karma to burn, feel free.)

The only thing we can change to actually help people is not through indictment of past but by ensuring that abuses stop and abusers change behavior.

It's good that some places have stopped it now. it's not good that some are still continuing to do so - and need to be stopped. Past abuses do not excuse or justify current ones, they are in an entirely different moral category that things which are happening now and can be changed (unlike tha past). The cases like the smallpox ones are condemnable and condemned, and we should not suffer anyone doing that now or in the future, no matter if it's USA or China or anyone else.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#42

Post by chasil »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #35
chasil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

Seriously? You see reports of state-sponsored child abuse and your first instinct is, "well, who are we to judge?" I imagine the answer should be, "pretty much anyone who isn't a child abuser."

Sovereignty means many things, but one thing specifically:

No other realm may decide the fate of these people.

China is sovereign, and we must acknowledge that.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#43

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

chasil wrote: post #16
Permit wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit?

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

Why can't one acknowledge that their country did horrible things in the past and at the same time demand that other countries don't repeat history? You are not born with inherited sympathy for every action that your ancestors did in the past.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#44

Post by chasil »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #37
chasil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

What blessed YOU with a wisdom not seen before?

XCIX Ah, Fate! could you and I with Him conspire To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire, Would not we shatter it to bits--and then Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!

We would wish for a better world.

Not all the wishing in the world would make it so.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#45

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

chasil wrote: post #42
TulliusCicero wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? You see reports of state-sponsored child abuse and your first instinct is, "well, who are we to judge?" I imagine the answer should be, "pretty much anyone who isn't a child abuser."

Sovereignty means many things, but one thing specifically: No other realm may decide the fate of these people. China is sovereign, and we must acknowledge that.

This is an entirely different point from the first one you proposed

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#46

Post by TeeMassive »

version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

1) I'm looking for non-Chinese, thus less cheap and more durable, alternatives whenever I can.

2) I regularly speak out on CGTN (their global propaganda network that post on websites regular Chinese citizens don't have a right to access) on their social media pages using my personal account with my real identity. This has probably cut me off from the country and jobs that do lots of business there.

3) I talk politics with family and friends. I never bring up politics at the table, except for this subject. I know I probably lost a handful of "friends" because of that. Never mind. People often ask/brag about what they would have done during WW2 to fight Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire, I always point out what they are doing right now with China.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#47

Post by friedturkey »

yumraj wrote: post #21
version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

Trying to buy as many things that are not made in China as possible, even if I have to spend more since in most cases that means buying a better product, and in others buying fewer products. I was recently pleasantly surprised to see that the M1 iMac was made in Thailand.

Thailand has a rampant slave problem. Their seafood industry is propped up by slaves and the sex slavery that’s prevalent throughout the country is sickening. The ongoing human rights abuses and absolute suppression of anyone who questions the king is also terrifying.

After going to Thailand and seeing the situation there first hand, I’ve decided to never buy a Thai product ever again.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#48

Post by sofixa »

mc32 wrote: post #40
version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

It will take major corporate interests to take a stand like they did with South Africa with regards to apartheit. Massive economic impact can induce a corrective effect --unless you have a despot altogether like North Korea where noting will make a difference and only national trade policies can suppress coöperation. But, as we have witnessed so far, sometimes the money spigot is too good and you just make motions an…

The problem is that many companies rely heavily on China, either for supply, manufacturing or as a big lucrative market. South Africa wasn't nearly as important on any of those, so it was a much easier stance to make.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#49

Post by Jensson »

version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

Individuals boycotting a country never had a great effect. Boycotts needs organization, for example governments can do it.

Did you vote to boycott China? That is what matters for these things.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#50

Post by mrbonner »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #13
version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?

I’m not sure how stop eating Chinese food would help. You seem confuse between the CCP and the normal Chinese folks.
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