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Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

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Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#31

Post by chasil »

ddulaney wrote: post #11
chasil wrote: post #2

I talked about this recently, and I was reminded of the Blackhawk War. I have read Blackhawk's memoirs, because it's such a part of my community, but nobody knows it. There were extenuating circumstances (the British gun-running down the Mississipi). U.S. forces suffered important defeats (Campbell's Island, and the Battle of Credit Island that humbled future president Zachary Taylor.) I learned from another source t…

Nobody is clean. Everybody must judge. Not only is it possible for an American to condemn abuse of children, they have a moral duty to do so. It is also a requirement that China hold America to account for what America and Americans have done, in the past and today. But any news outlet has not only a right but a duty to denounce human rights abuses everywhere.

If we hold the United States to account, then how far back should that go?

Prior to the U.S. government, smallpox was aggressively dispersed in the Americas, removing 90% of the native population.

Are we willing to indict Spain?

If not, why not? I am no more guilty than they.

(I have karma to burn, feel free.)

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#32

Post by xmprt »

Permit wrote: post #4
chasil wrote: post #2

I talked about this recently, and I was reminded of the Blackhawk War. I have read Blackhawk's memoirs, because it's such a part of my community, but nobody knows it. There were extenuating circumstances (the British gun-running down the Mississipi). U.S. forces suffered important defeats (Campbell's Island, and the Battle of Credit Island that humbled future president Zachary Taylor.) I learned from another source t…

You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit?

Slightly off topic but I extremely worried about schools shying away from teaching the horrific things that their countries have done in the past. You can't sugar coat things like slavery and colonization. Especially with the fight against "CRT" in many US schools we're seeing this happen increasingly in recent years.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#33

Post by benrbray »

dymk wrote: post #17
TulliusCicero wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?

OP is asking if we're actually willing to personally sacrifice in order to pressure China into not violating human rights. Or if we're all talk and no bite. And it's a fair question. Has anyone here even written to their senator? The only way the leadership of our country (I'm assuming most of us are in the US) is going to impose real sanctions and penalties on China is if we, as a people, vehemently demand it. Perso…

> Has anyone here even written to their senator?

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice a senator has made to their beliefs after receiving a letter? I'm guessing a check would be more persuasive.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#34

Post by kristofferR »

endisneigh wrote: post #29
PeterisP wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? I mean, it's immoral, but looking at history, forced assimilation has succeeded many times - it's just that it takes a lot of time (century+, certainly more than any individual's lifetime) and when it does, we now think of the assimilated people as an inherent part of the assimilating nation. The currently visible examples are just exceptions, either the ones where it has failed as the "assimilating empire"…

China at some point or another will need immigrants. Assimilation might be effective, but it also might deter immigration. That being said it’s a very productive and lucrative country for poor people in the region so maybe it’s not that big of a deal.

China's demographic problems are still decades away though from being so problematic that they'll consider immigration, there probably won't be Uyghurs left by then.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#35

Post by TulliusCicero »

chasil wrote: post #16
Permit wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit?

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

Seriously? You see reports of state-sponsored child abuse and your first instinct is, "well, who are we to judge?"

I imagine the answer should be, "pretty much anyone who isn't a child abuser."

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#36

Post by perihelions »

yumraj wrote: post #21
version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

Trying to buy as many things that are not made in China as possible, even if I have to spend more since in most cases that means buying a better product, and in others buying fewer products. I was recently pleasantly surprised to see that the M1 iMac was made in Thailand.

Apple is a particularly bad offender; they actively lobbied the US government against sanctions targeting Uyghur concentration camp labor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u... ("Apple is lobbying against a bill aimed at stopping forced labor in China")

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#37

Post by cscurmudgeon »

chasil wrote: post #16
Permit wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit?

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

What blessed YOU with a wisdom not seen before?

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#38

Post by dymk »

benrbray wrote: post #33
dymk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is asking if we're actually willing to personally sacrifice in order to pressure China into not violating human rights. Or if we're all talk and no bite. And it's a fair question. Has anyone here even written to their senator? The only way the leadership of our country (I'm assuming most of us are in the US) is going to impose real sanctions and penalties on China is if we, as a people, vehemently demand it. Perso…

> Has anyone here even written to their senator? Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice a senator has made to their beliefs after receiving a letter? I'm guessing a check would be more persuasive.

Actually yeah, we had a recent law here in Washington pass (I cannot remember the specifics of it, but that's not the important part).

Iirc, 8 people in total contacted a particular state rep (well, their office), and that law was given the time of day because turns out, _very very_ few people ever try to get in contact with them.

Now, this was a state senator, not a US senator, but still, it only takes a very small (but very vocal!) minority to at least signal concern. China is obviously a much bigger issue and there are greater powers pushing back against any kind of real action. But it does send a message.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#39

Post by chasil »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #22
chasil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

Change. Goddamn, are you serious standing there saying "it's cool, rape and torture them. Our country used to do it a few generations ago." Privileged asshole.

Should we be compelled to intervene in sovereign nations?

Does sovereignty still exist?

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#40

Post by mc32 »

version_five wrote: post #10

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

It will take major corporate interests to take a stand like they did with South Africa with regards to apartheit. Massive economic impact can induce a corrective effect --unless you have a despot altogether like North Korea where noting will make a difference and only national trade policies can suppress coöperation.

But, as we have witnessed so far, sometimes the money spigot is too good and you just make motions and pretensions --like LeBron James and Tim Cook.

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