How should net metering affect your electric bill? • Hacker News Board

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#151

Post by secabeen » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #142

secabeen wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solar panels generated enough power that there was never an electric bill other than the $12 fee to be hooked into the grid. And this was in cloudy, rainy Oregon. Yeah, this is it in a nutshell. You were only being charged $12/month for a grid connection, when a grid connection was clearly worth much much more than that. The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC.

> The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC. Or is essentially absurd... my 6.6kW system generates about 3x more than we need for 8 months of the year, but about 1/3 of what we need for 4 months of the year (the period when our air-source heat pumps, aka minisplits, are in use). To be able to go off-grid would require either: - a systems 3x bigger than we have, generating 9x…

This is a fair observation. Interestingly, what you describe (a system 3x larger than your average load) is essentially what the grid has to have. Looking at the California data, here in Winter, today's peak usage is about 28 Megawatts and the overnight low is about 20MW. However, the peak all time usage for California is over 50MW. Our entire electric grid has to handle that 100% delta in usage; it's not surprising that a personal grid would have to handle at least that much delta. That's just what is required to have 24x7x365 electricity; you can't hide from that reality.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#152

Post by brohee » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #106

Bilal_io wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it is for electricity in Texas. You pay a delivery charge, and then usage charge, both based on kw/h.

But that's the problem! The cost of the grid is the same whether it delivers you 100kWh or 10,000kWh. The delivery charge should be a fixed monthly charge, based on the size of your meter, not scaled to the number of kWh you consume.

That's not true at all, as people use more electricity, aggregate usage gets higher and the grid eventually needs beefier interconnections, beefier transformers... The delivery charge would actually be fairer based on peak usage, as it has more relevance to the sizing of the grid.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#153

Post by FabHK » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #66

I'm not sure I even understand what the point of this substack article is and it is oversimplified. Is it him just examining what net-metering is then realizing that the utility provides more value than just electricity generation and that is eye opening to him? There's no conclusion and no cohesive argument just that the world is full of pricing distortions or that what you pay in prices isn't always exactly what yo…

I agree that the article is maybe not very clear in its conclusion. But one valuable thing I took from it is this pernicious tension I hadn't been aware of before between pricing electricity in accordance

- to actual production costs: large fixed "standing charge" (per unit of time), small consumption charge (per unit of energy)

- with environmental goals: small fixed standing charge, large consumption charge.

You could argue that you should just (that word is doing a lot of work here) internalise the external costs, and then price it as "undistorted" as possible. Does that lead to the right answer here?

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#154

Post by manquer » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #143

Arainach wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this model, but it seems counterproductive to any environmental goals. For instance, my water infrastructure bill absolutely dwarfs my usage. I could take an hourlong shower every day and barely notice the increase in my bill. It seems like it's sending the wrong message.

Is water scarcity a thing in your area? Perhaps your water is cheap because its readily available in your area. In Chicago, they have so much water in Lake Michigan, most homes don't even have water meters.

Living close to a water source or reservoir doesn’t make conservation less important.It is a intricate system with complex interconnects

A lot of places downstream will be using the water from your Lake /Dam /river as their only source. Same reason why in some states like Colarado it is illegal to rain water harvest. Riparian rights and ethics are complex

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#155

Post by secabeen » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

brohee wrote: post #152

secabeen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the problem! The cost of the grid is the same whether it delivers you 100kWh or 10,000kWh. The delivery charge should be a fixed monthly charge, based on the size of your meter, not scaled to the number of kWh you consume.

That's not true at all, as people use more electricity, aggregate usage gets higher and the grid eventually needs beefier interconnections, beefier transformers... The delivery charge would actually be fairer based on peak usage, as it has more relevance to the sizing of the grid.

> That's not true at all, as people use more electricity, aggregate usage gets higher and the grid eventually needs beefier interconnections, beefier transformers...

To a degree, but not in a linear fashion to the amount of power delivered, and certainly not on a unit-power delivery basis.

>The delivery charge would actually be fairer based on peak usage, as it has more relevance to the sizing of the grid.

Very true, and also very common in commercial power billing, usually called a "demand charge" where you pay a specific tariff based of that peak of usage. Unfortunately, it can create really spikey and hard to manage bills, so I accept the argument that it's not appropriate for residential use. Thus, a flat charge on your meter size. On many commercial bills, the demand charge can exceed 75% of the total bill!

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#156

Post by FabHK » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

microfen wrote: post #59

People have seen this net metering problem coming from far off. I wrote a very unpolished undergrad thesis on this a while ago. Some standout articles from back then showed how net metering leads to a positive feedback of solar adoption [1] because of how rates are structured throughout this country (and the world for that matter), and it was time to consider modifying the rate setting process [2]. My conclusion was…

Very interesting, and surprising conclusion. I hadn't seen this problem before. (Though, note regarding "coming from far off" - the articles you cite are from 2013, 2014.)

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#157

Post by irrational » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #151

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC. Or is essentially absurd... my 6.6kW system generates about 3x more than we need for 8 months of the year, but about 1/3 of what we need for 4 months of the year (the period when our air-source heat pumps, aka minisplits, are in use). To be able to go off-grid would require either: - a systems 3x bigger than we have, generating 9x…

This is a fair observation. Interestingly, what you describe (a system 3x larger than your average load) is essentially what the grid has to have. Looking at the California data, here in Winter, today's peak usage is about 28 Megawatts and the overnight low is about 20MW. However, the peak all time usage for California is over 50MW. Our entire electric grid has to handle that 100% delta in usage; it's not surprising…

But doesn’t California have rolling blackouts? That makes it seem like the grid needs to be larger than 3x.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#158

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #151

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC. Or is essentially absurd... my 6.6kW system generates about 3x more than we need for 8 months of the year, but about 1/3 of what we need for 4 months of the year (the period when our air-source heat pumps, aka minisplits, are in use). To be able to go off-grid would require either: - a systems 3x bigger than we have, generating 9x…

This is a fair observation. Interestingly, what you describe (a system 3x larger than your average load) is essentially what the grid has to have. Looking at the California data, here in Winter, today's peak usage is about 28 Megawatts and the overnight low is about 20MW. However, the peak all time usage for California is over 50MW. Our entire electric grid has to handle that 100% delta in usage; it's not surprising…

It's not about hiding from the reality. It's about how energy storage (and generation) systems scale and can be activated/deactivated.

On the generation side: If I had put in a 21kW system to cover our winter needs, the extra power it generates during the summer would have been unconditionally generated. Do this broadly across the population and the power grid has a substantial management problem. Conversely, utility-run systems are likely to be built so as to be much more modulatable, to match demand.

On the storage side: yes, obviously the total storage required is the same, but for more or less all the technologies I'm aware of today, this would be much more efficiently done with large storage systems than per-household distributed ones.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#159

Post by FabHK » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

Fr3dd1 wrote: post #146

Kind of different in germany. I work as a dev team lead for a company that develops billing software for the german energy sector. Its super regulated by the government. For example, depending on the year you got your soloar, the amount of money you get for your energy you bring back into the grid, is different. All has its pros and cons tho

Can I ask, in Germany, are there (many?) days when households with solar are net energy positive?

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#160

Post by zbrozek » Thu, Feb 03, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #149

secabeen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the problem! The cost of the grid is the same whether it delivers you 100kWh or 10,000kWh. The delivery charge should be a fixed monthly charge, based on the size of your meter, not scaled to the number of kWh you consume.

It encourages you to use more electricity though, which is not good.

The current system in PG&E territory encourages me to prefer gas to electricity everywhere I'm able to make the choice. That's surely worse.