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How should net metering affect your electric bill?

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Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#141

Post by bonzini »

jmacd wrote: post #41

The (privatized) power utility in Nova Scotia, Canada just this week proposed a fee of $8/kWh for solar power entering the grid. It was met with a pretty ferocious response to the point the government started re-writing the legislation that governs utility regulation. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/premier-vows-to-p... A very large solar industry has been established around these pricing discrepancies. No…

Note that it's $8/kW/month (presumably based on peak kW production); not $8/kWh.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#142

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

secabeen wrote: post #85
irrational wrote: post #77

> If a house on average generates as much as it uses, the electric bill will be zero. (In practice there’s a minimum monthly fee, but it’s pretty low.) This was the case in the last house I lived in. The solar panels generated enough power that there was never an electric bill other than the $12 fee to be hooked into the grid. And this was in cloudy, rainy Oregon. I did think about this scenario. If everyone had pane…

> The solar panels generated enough power that there was never an electric bill other than the $12 fee to be hooked into the grid. And this was in cloudy, rainy Oregon. Yeah, this is it in a nutshell. You were only being charged $12/month for a grid connection, when a grid connection was clearly worth much much more than that. The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC.

> The usual cost of a full off-grid system can clear $100k if it's sized to cover HVAC.

Or is essentially absurd... my 6.6kW system generates about 3x more than we need for 8 months of the year, but about 1/3 of what we need for 4 months of the year (the period when our air-source heat pumps, aka minisplits, are in use).

To be able to go off-grid would require either:

    - a systems 3x bigger than we have, generating 9x more power than we need for 8 months of the year
OR

    - a gigantic (10MW?) battery system to store the excess power from the summer
Neither of these make any sense to me, and seem like well-intentioned but fundamentally ill-conceived designs.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#143

Post by secabeen »

Arainach wrote: post #101
secabeen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this model is common in other utilities in the US (both by water and gas bills are structured this way), with a large meter fee and a consumption charge in line with the resource cost. Electricity could certainly be charged this way (and should), but it would be a huge change in how electricity is billed here, and the PUC would rather just make changes to just the net-metering system rather than open the can of…

I've seen this model, but it seems counterproductive to any environmental goals. For instance, my water infrastructure bill absolutely dwarfs my usage. I could take an hourlong shower every day and barely notice the increase in my bill. It seems like it's sending the wrong message.

Is water scarcity a thing in your area? Perhaps your water is cheap because its readily available in your area. In Chicago, they have so much water in Lake Michigan, most homes don't even have water meters.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#144

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Here in New Mexico, when I connected our 6.6kW PV array to the grid, I had the choice of net metering or not. But there was a wrinkle: if I chose net metering, the power company could use our installation to count towards its own state and federally mandated shift toward renewables.

Being a cantakerous old geezer, I said hell no, and opted for no net metering. Works out OK from my perspective: still pay small electricity bills for the excess that we need for 3-4 months a year, and just the $7.70 connection charge for the rest.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#145

Post by Bilal_io »

hunterb123 wrote: post #125
Bilal_io wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's accurate. We're in constant fear of losing power whenever there is a freeze warning (we're on that today and tomorrow at least), rain or heat. That's all thanks to the greedy for-profit system enabled by "conservative" politicians.

That's not really accurate. I've lost power 4 times total in 30 years here. Usually big Texas thunderstorms, never heat. The 100 year winter freeze I lost power for two days, that was the longest ever. Haven't lost power since then, didn't lose power for a couple years before that. We have the cheapest rates because of the way distribution and providers are setup. The problem with big user bills were SV companies lik…

I am not denying your experience, but I was talking about my own. I lost power for over 3 hours just 2 nights ago. And since the horrible experience we had in February 2021 we (me and everyone I know) have been living in fear it might happen again.

A quick look at Centerpoint's own outage tracker[1] shows outages everywhere in different parts of Texas.

1. https://gis.centerpointenergy.com/outagetracker/?WT.ac=OC_Im...

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#146

Post by Fr3dd1 »

Kind of different in germany. I work as a dev team lead for a company that develops billing software for the german energy sector. Its super regulated by the government. For example, depending on the year you got your soloar, the amount of money you get for your energy you bring back into the grid, is different. All has its pros and cons tho

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#147

Post by bonzini »

rr808 wrote: post #128
bonzini wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Either the fixed part of the bill or the nighttime price would grow as needed to cover the actual cost of the grid and the cost of energy on cloudy days. Either way, the new pricing would stimulate th…

> If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Right - but this is different that everyone expects it to work. People expect to sell power to the grid when the sun shines, then get the same power from the grid at night and offset them to be net…

Sure, but nobody promised kWh offsetting would remain in place forever. $ offsetting can still save you money.

Also, because you entered the solar market first, you might have easier access to credit to upgrade it with batteries. So you'll benefit from price arbitrage more than the late-comers who have just taken a loan to install a solar roof and can't afford the batteries right now. Or you might buy a plugin car, charge it cheaply when the sun is high, and save on gas expenses (that's what I do since I work from home, :) and it's possible to both top up the car and charge the 4 kWh solar batteries in most sunny days with a very small 3 kW installation).

Which brings up another problem especially in Europe: taxes on gas are financing roads and the like in ways that sooner or later will have to be covered by increasing electricity prices. Right now, early buyers of electric cars are having their purchase subsidized because effectively they pay fewer[1] per-km taxes than owners of ICE cars.

[1] not just less taxes, also literally fewer

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#148

Post by FabHK »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #99

I just moved into a new construction house in Colorado with a substantial (23kW) solar installation. It’s been interesting to see how much, in the words of the author, ‘feeding bread to pigs’ I have ended up doing. The solar installation (which is probably larger than optimal) is dictated by the policy for the house to be “net zero”, which in turn is dictated by a policy based on the size of the house. (In practice,…

This frightful story reminds me of Dan Luu's recent piece on Cocktail Party Theories [1], among other things about the "error of taking a high-level view and incorrectly assuming that things are simple". As so often, the devil lies in the details.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185229

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#149

Post by thatfrenchguy »

secabeen wrote: post #106
Bilal_io wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it is for electricity in Texas. You pay a delivery charge, and then usage charge, both based on kw/h.

But that's the problem! The cost of the grid is the same whether it delivers you 100kWh or 10,000kWh. The delivery charge should be a fixed monthly charge, based on the size of your meter, not scaled to the number of kWh you consume.

It encourages you to use more electricity though, which is not good.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#150

Post by throwaway894345 »

triceratops wrote: post #132
throwaway894345 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty much a tautology--I'm defining "sanctimonious environmentalist" as one who makes showy personal sacrifices for esteem. If emissions decrease because manufacturing processes become more efficient, then their sacrifices were for naught and the lifestyle they've been pushing on others becomes irrelevant (or decreases in relevance).

> then their sacrifices were for naught and the lifestyle they've been pushing on others becomes irrelevant And I'm arguing the opposite. In the short-term at least, costs will rise and people will be forced to cut back.

I agree that's the short-term effect (although a carbon tax will likely start out small and increase over time so as to minimize unpopular effects), but in my experience this analysis is too sophisticated for most of this "sanctimonious environmentalist" group. I.e., people who tend to believe that the environment hinges on converting people to vegan cyclists are not likely to understand economics well enough to understand a carbon tax. This is a big and unflattering generalization for expedience sake, so I'm trusting readers to understand the larger point and not get mired in "this is a generalization!" counterarguments.
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