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Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#431

Post by walterbell »

vinay427 wrote: post #361
walterbell wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an iOS 3rd-party app which can provide on-device outbound firewalling across all apps?

Yes, AdGuard seems to do so and IIRC also has customizable block lists. The default includes Safari-only blocking but it is able to add a device-wide filter using Apple's API for VPNs. It seems to identify the various trackers used by the social media apps on my device, for instance. App store link: https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1047223162 GitHub link: https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardForiOS System-wi…

Looks like system-wide blocking is via DNS, which would leak DNS requests to AdGuard's DNS server? The same could be accomplished with a local PiHole device.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#434

Post by Xelbair »

dsl wrote: post #423
Xelbair wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it is essential. Google (and Apple) maps provide lane specific navigation directions, which are really only possible with assisted GPS. In theory GPS has the accuracy, but remember you are in a big metal box filled with electrical wires. Not to mention other applications like isle specific navigation within stores, which is made possible by bluetooth beacons. As someone who's degree had a course in sattelite ran…

> As someone who's degree had a course in sattelite rangefinding So you are well versed in multipath reflection and why it makes unassisted GPS in urban environments with tall buildings close together almost completely unusable? > You don't need to get precision down to a lane on the road for purpose of navigation If you want to build an early 2000s Garmin competitor, sure. But people don't buy $1,500 pocket computer…

>So you are well versed in multipath reflection and why it makes unassisted GPS in urban environments with tall buildings close together almost completely unusable?

Yes, a common problem even for static measurements. Yet it worked with 'dumb' gps navigations. Btw - it's not just a p roblem in urban evirorments, especially for phase measurements - you shouldn't do precise measurements near the trees.

Just to illustrate when doing a phase measurement, under good HDOP constellation, next to the forest we barely could achieve an accuracy of half meter using Leica 1200. We measured the same reference point using total station and neighboring network of reference points.

For a reference, you could easily get sub 2cm accuracy, although below 10cm was a minimum target for that job.

>If you want to build an early 2000s Garmin competitor, sure. But people don't buy $1,500 pocket computers every 18 months to keep doing the same thing.

Sure, but it isn't a CORE REQUIREMENT for the service to function. you can degrade it, and have it work pretty well, without requiring all users to submit other tracking data sources.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#435

Post by Piskvorrr »

guyzero wrote: post #223
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lane specific driving directions? How many Wifi access points and Bluetooth beacons is Google expecting to find on the highway while moving at 70mph?

This may be Waze beacons which use bluetooth to help position the user when they're going through tunnels, where there is no GPS coverage. https://support.google.com/waze/partners/answer/9416071?hl=e... https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/29/18202359/waze-beacons-nyc...

...positioned to give you a 1-dimensional measurement: how far are you along this specific tunnel? Expecting triangulation is, well, overly optimistic. By an order of magnitude, at least (and would require a far denser mesh of beacons, whereas this only needs one beacon every $measure ; or two, for added redundancy).

In other words, it's still useful for navigation like "you are now 2000 meters/yards/cubits into the tunnel, therefore you should be taking either of the two middle lanes", but the trick is, this doesn't require the app to know your current lane.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#436

Post by Piskvorrr »

Friedduck wrote: post #424
dsl wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who's degree had a course in sattelite rangefinding So you are well versed in multipath reflection and why it makes unassisted GPS in urban environments with tall buildings close together almost completely unusable? > You don't need to get precision down to a lane on the road for purpose of navigation If you want to build an early 2000s Garmin competitor, sure. But people don't buy $1,500 pocket computer…

Are you saying every tomtom, garmin, etc used Bluetooth and cell services for navigation all those years? Not to be argumentative but dedicated GPS devices didn’t always have that option. Also I’m curious: it uses triangulation off cell towers to help. I don’t see how Bluetooth helps improve accuracy. Do they map WiFi spots accurately?

No, they used other technologies, such as DGPS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#437

Post by Piskvorrr »

chippy wrote: post #377
phh wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you :-) I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I'm sad not seeing it reported more often. I consider that Google Maps being free stagnated the maps market, and stopped any innovation from happening. Often when I say this, I get "But OpenStreetMap". When only volunteers can compete, that's a definite proof something's wrong. (though arguably Google Maps did improve a bit over time, while gmail really didn't at all…

It's worth pointing out that OpenStreetMap has Microsoft, Amazon, Apple and Facebook and many other corporate contributors and they are contributing huge amounts of data, all the time, everywhere. "Apple Maps, is by far the most prolific current corporate editor and was responsible for almost 80% of all edits to pre-existing roads in 2018." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-19/openstree... https://www.o…

This bandwagon only happened because OSM gained traction, sometime in the 2010s. Sure, popularity breeds more popularity, afterwards. Even for all this, the biggest single event that boosted interest in OSM was, ironically, Google imposing far stricter gratis limits on its Maps, a few years back (2018, IIRC?)

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#438

Post by drewzero1 »

im3w1l wrote: post #411
drewzero1 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the phone know the wifi signal is coming from your right?

Good point. Ok what about this then: Check the relative strength of cars travelling opposite way compared to same way.

I suppose if there are enough cars, and if you have access to the wifi and location data for enough of the phones, it might be possible to determine someone's relative location by triangulating the signal strength from multiple vantage points.

So my phone by itself doesn't know the direction of the signal, but two or more other phones could combine our location data with relative wifi signal strength and potentially get a better idea of where the signal is coming from. (I had forgotten that we were talking about an entity that potentially knows the data from all the devices, not just one endpoint.)

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#439

Post by lern_too_spel »

cush wrote: post #429
howinteresting wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply turning off the wifi icon doesn't turn off wifi.

How so?

That only turns off using WiFi for data. If you have location services enabled, which is necessary to get ypur location on iOS, iOS will continue scanning WiFi networks and uploading them to Apple.

Re: Google Maps now requires WiFi scanning to use navigation

#440

Post by matt_heimer »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #416
matt_heimer wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know for sure that those pictures aren't uploaded to Google? Maybe not nefarious but its crazy that my gps navigation app prompts me to start taking pictures while driving to improve accuracy.

The feature only works while walking [0]. [0] https://www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/google/147956-what-is-...

Might be related but not the same thing as I've experienced. I'm in maps (not navigating, usually just selecting a location) and driving and I get a promote to improve the accuracy (similar to the one where you'd rotate your phone to calibrate the compass).

I am not trying to use AR and the prompt doesn't take me to AR, it just wants to scan the area with the camera and then its done.

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