Always worth talking to ones with opportunities that seem interesting. Those are rare. But if you do and follow up every 6mo/year..you can just ping them whenever you're ready to move on and you'll have an interview.
Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
271–280 of 633 posts
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The reasons that there are so many incompetent recruiters are many, but a few are… companies hire entry level recruiters and pay them next to nothing in guaranteed compensation (mostly commission-based). The good ones will make the company a lot of money, and the bad ones can't afford to stay in the industry because they aren't making enough in commission - so they 'go away' Wouldn't that be an explanation for why…
Good question. The bad ones don't go away immediately. They go away eventually, and are quickly replaced with another round of new hires. So you have maybe 10% of the industry that stays for the long haul, and 90% is a revolving door of college grads. There are probably other industries that have similar models where most of the workforce is newbies at all times, but I don't have an example that won't be dissected.
That's a great description of software consultancy firms. Most people are fresh college grads who leave after their first contract is up or earlier.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#273I think we have this post every few months on this site, so let me explain how recruiting works.
There's 3 types/market for recruiters and they almost never overlap. The first are "body shop style" recruiters. It's basically a numbers game where they try to cold-call as much people with githubs/linkedin or blogs that reference programming. They don't know programming (not even what's the difference between languages or front-end/back-end) and are looking for a list of buzzwords. They'll send copy-pasted messages (you can tell because it references tech you never used or never even claimed to have used). If you respond (and really you shouldn't) you won't be able to get any relevant information about the position because... they don't have it. These recruiters are often contracted by external firms in "best value countries" and are given canned response to message you. That's probably what the author encountered.
Second type are professional recruiters. Their salary is by commissions will often be a percentage of your salary. They are knowledgeable about programming and tech (often former engineers who wanted a break from coding!). They typically are looking to match specific profiles to specific jobs at client companies. This goes all the way to recruiters specialized in C-Suite executives (and you can picture the commission finding a CEO will bring in). Their messages will be personalized and you shouldn't hesitate to reply back even if you aren't looking for a job. They know that most great software engineers are almost never openly looking for a job so their goal is to be on good terms with a large number of talented developers so that the minute they start looking for a job they can match them with positions. You'll know when you encounter one.
Third type is basically referrals. A players attract A players, smart companies know it. Make sure your referral bonus is a percentage of total comp. It's probably the most effective way of recruiting (it has an insane signal to noise ratio). But you only get access to that type of network by... bringing value and being part of it in the first place!
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#274Funny Story: A recruiter sent me a detail post about a job. I wrote back and said I was interested. He never responded so I applied to the job online and got it. 4 months later he messages me and says sorry but it looks like the position has been removed. I didn't write back.
I had that happen with a house once. I sent a house to my agent (that I had an existing relationship with), and they never responded. So I found a new agent and bought the house. Old agent reappears two weeks later and I informed them of what happened.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#275Bad career advice I received early in my career: Don't talk compensation until late in the interviewing process after you've already convinced them to hire you. Compensation is the first thing I bring up now. "I currently make X salary, Y annual bonus, and Z equity. This position will need to exceed all 3 by at least 20% before I even consider it. Does that sound doable? If not, let's not waste any more of each other…
I do the same thing - I give them a ballpark of what I am making right now and depending on the opportunity what it would take to make me say yes (and if I em flexible/etc).
Sets expectations and avoid wasted time, which everyone prefers.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#276Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. But the real secret sauce is referrals. Companies always prioritize a strong referral,…
> Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest.
100% agree. I'd go a step further and say: don't bother applying for any job on Indeed where they say "we're looking to fill a contract position with " because they're just a front for those same recruiting farms.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you're already extremely out of band and are pretty sure your range will be higher than 95% of your incoming offers, I do not recommend doing this. Never give first numbers, and if you're in software and haven't gotten past the middling, typical startup salary numbers and onto the mind-blowingly high numbers, you will not feel confident enough to handle a negotiation where you've already given away too much in…
I have >20 years of experience and my comp is absolutely >95% of inbound offers. So yes, I definitely want to not waste time with those and instead focus on the 5%.
That's great, and I'm in a similar situation myself. But your intro mentioned this being early career advice, which could mislead people into making pretty big negotiation mistakes.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#278How could anyone come to this contrarian conclusion, even after reading the article it is baffling. There is a time and place for in-house recruiters and third party recruiters. This article does not identify them and obsessively takes the contrarian view with no supporting rationale for doing so.
Hey! Thanks for your feedback. I would love to try and understand what you're saying but I'm struggling a little. Can you explain what you mean by "There is a time and place for in-house recruiters and third party recruiters." what is that time and place? I honestly tried to be really nuanced (but clearly failed a little, thanks for that data point). I think it does speak to the fact that I have seen 20 years of the…
I like third party recruiters because I like to use them strategically. I know how they are compensated and they learn what I want to do, so I could get raises every 15-18 months by switching companies that they placed me at and they could get paid multiple times because turns out I'm a reliable employee!
We knew to ignore each other for 15 months. It was a good symbiotic relationship. Sometimes they knew I wanted side gigs and would hook me up with the companies that "needed something yesterday!" while they knew I was employed at one of their client companies. sometimes the recruiter hired me on their payroll directly instead of letting me be a contractor with their clients. it was a fun time for some time.
This has almost nothing to do with random outreach from them on linkedin. It is barely the same topic. But thats what I used them for.
In-house recruiters are distinctly different animals with a couple of overlapping daily tasks and the same name, but the way to use them is very different. A company with one of those wouldn't be using third party recruiters and thats fine, in house recruiters can somewhat bat for you in a unique and more holistic way but they are still just gatekeepers you want to get passed so you can talk technical stuff with hiring managers.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time Or share your data. I made a throwaway, but not obnoxious email on my domain just for recruiters a few years ago, so I could try tracking who I was talking to. Via three consecutive third-party recruiters I started getting cold calls and e-mails from recruiters I’d never contacted, never met, or never before engaged wit…
I highly recommend using a Google Voice number for recruiters for just such a reason. I keep all my interviewing data isolated from my private data.
I have a nice collection of "throwaway" phone numbers for all kinds of reasons, while one of them is dedicated to job hunting, I don't think merely having it would have stopped this agency from sharing my CV across to whomever they shared it with, or stopped whatever leak occurred for said email address to end up in so many collections of leaked data.
That was the reason: to understand where my data was leaking from, not to duck recruiter calls.
Re: Career advice nobody gave me: Never ignore a recruiter
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.
Actually it is not; this is how the term is defined: > nep·o·tism - /ˈnepəˌtizəm/ - noun - the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. [0] > Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives and friends in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, fitness, religion, and other activities. [1] [0] https://www.…
The practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends,
That's precisely the point - "close" relations. When we talk about business referrals, it by no means implied that the person being referred is a "friend" in the usual sense of the term (let alone relative). Usually it's just someone you vaguely know (by their work, and/or a chance encounter at a meetup or conference), but don't know too well personally.
And just because they come in via a referral does not mean, ipso facto, that "favoritism" is happening and all objectivity is thrown out the window in the evaluation process.