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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

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Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#411

Post by beamatronic »

pmontra wrote: post #384
pmontra wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)

Meta: I intended this comment to be a pun because of the post about the Tesla 3 update but it is getting a surprising number of upvotes. Apparently it's striking a chord. First of all, if you're a UX designer sorry for being a little snarky to you. A fair amount of it is probably unfair. Second, maybe you can shed some light on why that kind of UX updates happen. As somebody else wrote in another comment "designers d…

It’s not just the 3 is it?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#412

Post by jmartinpetersen »

goodpoint wrote: post #354
jmartinpetersen wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish my dishwasher could automaticly start whenver the price of electricity was low. I can manualle delay it by doing simple math in my head and forecasting prices, but it would be easier and more foolproof if I could script it with IFTTT.

In some countries with day/night tariff appliancies can trivially detect nighttime by voltage. It's been used for decades and it's extremely cheap and reliable.

Our tariffs for electricity vary by the hour. I don't know how to detect that by voltage?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#413

Post by throwaway2048 »

jerjerjer wrote: post #325
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, but in practice it doesn't actually matter enough for it to make a difference. What software-only advances are being made in wash efficiency these days?

Improved detection of unlicensed dishwasher tablets.

or as Nintendo puts it "Improvements to system stability"

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#414

Post by chopin »

jacquesm wrote: post #376
Pasorrijer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on a lot of them. Miele however, my mother's last Miele dishwasher lasted 22 years and they were still selling spare parts up until the day she replaced it. That's pretty unheard of in today's day and age

But that's the Miele of 22 years ago that you are talking about. Not necessarily the one that exists today.

That's unfortunately very true as I've experienced myself.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#415

Post by denton-scratch »

nrvn wrote: post #205

here is the problem statement: 1. Get a technology proven to have solved a given problem more than 100 years ago. 2. Throw ICs on top of it. 3. Put “smart” into marketing materials. 4. … 5. Profit There is nothing in any dishwasher[0], fridge, vacuum cleaner, washing machine, ${you_name_the_home_appliance} that would require to be smarter than they are without those (actually far from smart) hardware and software tha…

> imposed on customers

They are imposed, because dumb equipment is getting harder to find. You can't buy a dumb TV any more. It'll soon be the same with dishwashers and washing machines.

Incidentally, I don't want a smart machine with a 90's mode; that gives you all the complexity and unreliability of a smart machine.

I've heard that industrial-grade clothes washers are reliable. My toaster is a Dualit, and has no electronics - the timer is clockwork. This is industrial-grade - it's pitched at people running a bar or cafe (and priced accordingly). No planned obsolescence, and it's held together with screws - it's eminently repairable, and spares are available.

I'm prepared to pay for stuff that is un-smart.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#416

Post by dpark »

stragies wrote: post #322
dpark wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal dishwashers solve for this with a button or knob labeled “delay”. Breaking out an app to set the dishwasher to start late songs much less convenient. Occasionally I wish I had more granularity on the delay but never have I wanted an app to do it. I don’t know what I’d do with any of that other stuff. Does your dishwasher actually try to measure water quality? Because that seems like a really poor fit. I wouldn…

The point of such remote-scheduling is in my view, is that e.g. when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone, with Buttons for "Go Now", and one for "Tonight, one hour after last movement detection". And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and…

> when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone

But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t want it to run yet” and I absolutely do not want HA sending me a message every time I leave asking if I meant to run the dishwasher.

> And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine.

Maybe some dishwashers do have internal heaters to reheat the water? Mine definitely is connected to the hot water supply, though. I am not aware of it containing an internal heater. Definitely some dishwashers have a heating element for drying (mine does not) but I don’t think they use those elements for heating the water.

Also, does your clothes washing machine actually heat water? That seems pointless when you already have a device intended to provide hot water to the whole house. Mine connects to the hot and cold lines. I’d be annoyed if I bought a washing machine and then realized it had a heater inside instead of using the hot water supply. The extra complexity and failure modes and wasted time to heat the water do not seem to provide any value.

> At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and (since it's super-easy with HA) log/graph it over time. Plus detergent and salt levels are nice to know for shopping-list-planning.

Personally I don’t want “nice to haves” that requires my devices to be internet connected and have apps etc. The value is way too low for the complexity it adds. I especially don’t trust these device manufacturers to keep these systems running long term.

If you find value, though, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to buy one of those smart dishwashers.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#417

Post by rootusrootus »

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #391

Is it weird that the more tech becomes like this the more I feel checked out? I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a…

The problem isn't tech per se, it is the many poor implementations and the push by manufacturers to get you to subscribe to their cloud service.

You can have your cake and eat it too, but you do have to do some work to get there. I can control every light switch, thermostat, garage doors, deadbolts, and a few other random things. All from my phone. Automate things, get notified if I want, when the door is unlocked/opened/whatever. But critically, if my Home Assistant goes down, it all fails back to 1950s style. E.g. the deadbolts still have a physical key and a twist knob on the inside (though the keypad functionality is not Internet-dependent). This does mean I don't use any devices that become unusable when the HA server or Internet disappears (for example, Hue bulbs).

For devices that don't have local control as an option, I just refuse to buy them. I won't buy things that require a 'net connection to function.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#419

Post by EricE »

ethbr0 wrote: post #245
BruiseLee wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.

We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer. IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades). So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, t…

Not all IoT is the same. I only buy into IoT systems that I control and have zero or minimal cloud connections. Started years ago with the original X10 powerline control stuff, but as soon as the ZWave wireless mesh stuff started getting traction switched to that and never looked back. I use HomeSeer which is commercial home automation software - that will talk to just about ANY home automation standard out there. The UI is ugly as hell but its ridiculously versatile and functional. If I were to set up something now I'd just stick to stuff that can work locally with HomeKit and use HomeAssistant as the brain to replace HomeSeer. I already have HomeSeer and it works so no need to replace it, but thankfully there are alternatives like HomeKit that are capable - and free!

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#420

Post by vetinari »

sofixa wrote: post #232
buro9 wrote: post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

> There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!). Can't you have the machine running HA on two vlans or route with your router?

You can, but...

1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security").

The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager.

2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too.

For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent.

3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...

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