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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#591
post #244

No doubt, these censors and would-be censors have the best of intentions. But you've really got your head up your own ass if you convince yourself that you are protecting people by deciding the information that is appropriate for them to be exposed to. I just don't understand the shortsightedness, the naivete, or the willingness to discard the principle of free speech.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

(For context, I'm not from the US and I'm not coming from a background of belief in the US system particularly.)

> Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose.

You seem to hold that view that each legal right granted to people is a tool for a purpose. But some things are held, by some, to be worthwhile for their own sake. They are regarded as intrinsically worthwhile.

Consider:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed [...]"

That famous text talks about noble ideas such as life, freedom and justice as intrinsically worthwhile. They are not being granted as tools to provide some other social utility. They are the goals themselves.

It doesn't say life is protected because it makes society better, or that freedom is granted because it makes society more efficient or something.

It's the other way around. Within that framework for thinking about values, society and government are the tools; and life, freedom and happiness are the worthy goals.

Is it such a stretch to consider that free speech is part of personal freedom itself, therefore free speech is an intrinsically worthwhile goal to protect in and of itself?

If you do believe free speech is intrinsically worth protecting as part of life, freedom and happiness, you will surely butt up against the hard reality that it causes injustice and misery in some contexts by its effects. Speech has effects which deprive other people of these same intrinsically worthwhile things, including depriving other people of meaningful free speech. Ethical dilemmas do exist around free speech. Nonetheless, if you believe that it's intrinsically worthwhile because freedom is, you will surely make every effort to resolve ethical dilemmas in a way that keeps free speech as an elevated, worthwhile goal in and of itself, without it needing to be justified as a tool for any other purpose.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#592
post #502
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a man elected to the US Senate in 1994. First elected to Cross in 1987. Still there today. Guess which political party he belongs to. https://youtu.be/3E0a_60PMR8 Folks are literally about to be put on respirators denying they're sick from Covid. They're rarely if ever left wing. https://youtu.be/WicsWfTm1ZI So yeah, one side has the lion's share of denying climate change and Covid. I'll leave it as an exerci…

In a global context, the number of people believing in Jewish space lasers is a poor excuse to implement global surveillance and censorship. I rather that each country where those people live in take care of their citizens with the health care that they need, or legal system if those people get violent. I suspect however that fear over people that believe in Jewish space lasers is out of proportion of the actually nu…

We're not talking about a global context. We're specifically talking about US politics.

Just one believer in Jewish space lasers elected to Congress is far too many, and we have notably more than one. All from the same US party. And then there's the state level, all from the same US party.

Random folks believing in crazy notions is worrisome but viewable as a marginal percentage of the population, but we're not talking about them.

We're talking about elected individuals with real power who vote on real laws that affect us all. Some of those Congresspeople believe in Jewish space lasers, and all of those delusional folks belong to the GOP.

We can discuss whether it is sanguine to have Congresspeople make stock trades with a clear conflict of interest/insider trading. We can argue about what the top marginal tax rate should be. We can debate the merits of expanding or contracting the social safety net as it regards health care or parental leave or pre-K education/day care.

We're talking about elected officials—and an associated constituency that either support them or don't consider it a deal-breaker—who believe in Jewish space lasers and Democratic pizza parlor child sex and mutilation dungeons.

You can scream "free speech" all you like, but if you cannot see the substantive difference, free speech will not save you.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#593
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that much of the design of social media can contribute to this. As much as I love this: > HNs rules are great in this sense, to continuously seek out curious conversations instead of the rather solipsist tendency to soapbox. I also just thought how HN may contribute to this through design. I'm replying to your post right now and I can only see your post on my screen. While I can click "parent" in the menu to…

I agree, what seem like small design decisions can have great impact. I wonder if studies are being done on this. Something like About Face on interaction design, but then specifically on effective communication and discourse.

Ah, I imagine there are, as I remember back in 2006 or so at college, people started studying impacts of chats and such, however, I'm not specifically familiar with any research on it. If you come across it, I'd love to hear of it! Or if you do research and want some ideas / wanna partner on something, I'm also open to that. I don't have professional research background yet have worked on emotions and communications for almost 10 years now, and studied intercultural communication in college after switching from electrical engineering, so I'm quite fascinated by the intersection of computer-mediated communication and how it impacts us emotionally.

edit: Also, I'm not sure what you meant by "About Face," will you explain it more?

edit2: I think you meant this: https://www.invisionapp.com/inside-design/about-face-essenti...

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started wearing an N95 with vent immediately. Pretty sure it works to protect me. I asked local public health folks if this was OK (back when they were saying only wear if sick) pointing out it just costs pennies. They said not to believe "misinformation" but they would not arrest anyone for wearing a mask. Vent makes it extremely comfortable, no glass fog etc. Then they said the vent somehow was bad for others, bu…

Whether the vent is bad for others depends on whether the air from your breathing goes through any filter. COVID spreads with aerosols, and the more aerosols in the environment, the higher the chance of infection. You actually need to breathe in quite a bit of viral stuff in order to get infected. If the vent allows for more aerosols than a closed surgical mask, then the vent is worse for the people around you. It's…

It doesn't go through a filter, it just hits the flap and stops / goes down.

This is still obviously equal to or better than 90% of the masks I see people wearing (surgical / cloth etc).

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#595
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we must be talking at cross purposes, I didn't say anything about "stupid people", or forcing people to have any particular viewpoint. You seem to be lost in a sea of relative opinion, and of all viewpoints being equally valid/stupid. That's far from always the case. Again, by this logic, we should never address crime because by it's very nature a court case is trying to establish what are or are not real fac…

Thats what censorship boils down to and why it doesnt work. The answer to your initial question is being able to communicate why something doesnt work. Which apparently i am to stupid to in this case. But thats a stupidity people can work on, while censorship has fundamental issues. edit: was an answer to the first sentence before the edit To the rest, the problem is finding a basis solid enough for authoritarian act…

I've come back to this in light of another story that's made it to hacker news' front page - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30158269

It's an interesting exploration of the problems with fact checkers and weaponised use of 'facts' in online discourse.

It's also pretty much exactly what I was talking about when I said I was not talking about censorship, which you repeatedly ignored in the above discussion.

There are other avenues to explore here, in which we can look at whether information is correct and put it in context, than just heavy handed government action or merely better presentation of one side of an argument.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#596
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not pointing fingers at the other party, he's saying his trust in his own party has eroded.

I'm not saying they are pointing fingers, I'm asking how is this evidence of his own party being a problem so as to cause distrust?

The right has basically as far as I can see said get on with your lives, do what you want.

So I can wear a mask if I want as I understand it. I can get a vaccine if I want. If I've had covid I might decide that may provide some immunity. I can go to the beach if I want etc.

So while I don't agree with the right on many of their views (ie, vaccine effectiveness to the degree they have doubts there) - the rights views with respect to COVID seem less intrusive.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"never trustworthy to begin with" seems similar to the No True Scotsman[1] fallacy. I've been in religious circles where it's very important to defend the idea that once you believe, you're saved. But there's a darker side to that idea, because in order to maintain belief in the face of someone doubting and leaving the faith, everyone in the faith explains it away with "Oh, they never Really Believed in the first pla…

I can't see any connection to that fallacy. The question was about remaining trustworthy when incentives don't align. Being trustworthy when incentives do align means nothing at all though, does it?

People change. Environments can change people--not just incentives. "He was worthy of my trust, and now he's not" is a better framing when encountering new information than "he was never trustworthy to begin with" IMO.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. One thought experiment that has helped me get my mind around the problem is "why is it necessary that parents shield children from some information?" I think free speech might have a context that is invisible to us. Something like a prior, or trained neural net, in which free speech and no censorship is absolutely the right thing. And then there might be other conte…

>One thought experiment that has helped me get my mind around the problem is "why is it necessary that parents shield children from some information?" I'd argue that paternalism is particularly justified in relationships that are literally paternalistic. The issue is that the justification for my neighbor paternalistically dictating how I should live my life is much weaker a parent dictating to their child. We should…

Philosophy is often the tool I reach for when trying to deeply understand complex issues.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#599
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. One thought experiment that has helped me get my mind around the problem is "why is it necessary that parents shield children from some information?" I think free speech might have a context that is invisible to us. Something like a prior, or trained neural net, in which free speech and no censorship is absolutely the right thing. And then there might be other conte…

There is a difference between a child and an adult. We make that distinction for a reason, and we act differently for a reason. A great analogy is to think of an eggshell with a chick inside. The eggshell provides protection for a long time but is also restrictive. When the chick is strong enough it will break free. But if it breaks free too early it won’t be strong enough to survive in the world.

I like your analogy, as I appreciate thinking about it. Some thoughts:

Breaking an eggshell requires effort, and seems kind of like a "test" to me. But in most human societies, it's possible to simply let time pass and you will reach the "age of majority" (usually 18 or 19 years old). I wonder if we're doing a disservice by allowing children to cross that boundary without any "eggshell test".

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#600
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

> Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? It's important because it's a human right. > Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. No, it's a human right. Thinking that "human rights" are tools to serve a purpose is authoritarian thinking, where we grant people fictitious "rights" only if they serve some greater social purpose, but if that social purpose is…

"because it's a human right" isn't exactly a useful argument.

Someone decided to add it to the list of human rights. They did it because it is a useful tool (and likely because humans without it are somehow less than humans with it).

I don't think your answer is as useful as perhaps an explanation of why it is a human right.

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