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People don't work as much as they say

drmaciver.substack.com

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Re: People don't work as much as they say

#201

Post by brightball »

analog31 wrote: post #134
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #87

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

As a manager, I quickly realized that trying to be a technical contributor was a subtle and insidious form of micromanagement. Also, I could give myself my pick of the coolest tasks, which was unfair.

One of my favorite jobs was managing about a dozen Python programmers for 3 years…because I don’t know a lick of Python and it forced me to focus on the team more than the tasks.

I got a lot of joy out of helping everybody develop, find their groove and helping them coordinate and learn from each other.

The business demands I was shielding them from were extremely stressful though. A million things that everybody wanted done yesterday in wildly different directions.

At some point in trying to make concessions on the business side I started losing the support of a couple of senior guys on the team though. After a couple of months it was pretty clear there was no getting that confidence back. When the demands from both sides became too high to resolve, I didn’t have any choice but to move on. Really frustrating too because I gave so much to that job and team, but you can tell when you’ve lost people and there’s no easy fix like refactoring the code to make it all better.

As a manager, trust is the only thing that allows you to be effective; when your team knows that you are really looking out for them.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#202

Post by goodpoint »

jzwinck wrote: post #146
analog31 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, I quickly realized that trying to be a technical contributor was a subtle and insidious form of micromanagement. Also, I could give myself my pick of the coolest tasks, which was unfair.

Why did you feel that making direct technical contributions was micromanagement?

Because you either manage people / goals / interactions with other teams or do front line work.

If you cross the barrier the people in your team will be put under pressure having to do things like for example disagreeing with technical decision or debating something in a code review with... the same person that has the power to promote or fire them.

It creates a power gradient in every day activities.

That's "stealth" micromanagement regardless of the good intentions and technical skills of the manager.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#203

Post by ahelwer »

caseysoftware wrote: post #199
ahelwer wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very entertaining to read a thread of managers telling themselves they shouldn't do any work, and then simultaneously describing not doing any work as "many times the return of you as an IC" (presumably counting themselves not interfering with the people doing the actual work as equivalent to doing the sum of that work).

If you think "hands on keyboard coding" is the primary/only form of work that matters, then you've missed out on a lot. Of the best managers I've worked for, one of the most obviously important things they did was keep other teams off our backs. Constant interruptions, shifting priorities, "just a quick question", and the like do more to destroy a team and its progress than anything else. Their name doesn't get attac…

If you want that then hire someone to stand outside your office with a stick and reply rudely to emails. We don't need to give them hiring/firing/promotion/rewards authority.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#204

Post by megak1d »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #137
orzig wrote: post #43

Valuable prospective, but (as is the gist of half my comments here): People are even more different than you think. RescueTime wrote a similar post, but +100 data: https://rescuetime.wpengine.com/work-life-balance-study-2019... Look at the second histogram. The average is roughly aligned with OP’s summary, but there is huge variance. These comments have already devolved into people telling each other they are lying,…

I’ve logged my work time (automatically with time tracking apps) for over a decade. I’ve also done a significant amount of hourly-rate consulting where I’m very careful to only bill for actual working time. When I was younger, one of my early challenges was that I had been misled to believe that only time spent in the editor, writing code counted as “working”. There’s a somewhat pervasive idea among devs that meeting…

Interesting post. Would you share your tools and personal tracking techniques here?

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#205

Post by geoduck14 »

giantg2 wrote: post #194
_n_b_ wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, your main job is to make your ICs effective at doing their work. That means you need to be dealing with poor performers, rewarding with outstanding performers, trying to improve uneven performers, managing expectations from your management and shielding your team from the vicissitudes of your bosses as much as possible, fighting for things your team needs while shielding them from the demoralizing reali…

"trying to improve uneven performers" How do you do that? Apparently I'm an inconsistent performer now.

>"trying to improve uneven performers" >How do you do that? Apparently I'm an inconsistent performer now.

I'm unsure if you are asking for advice on how to improve because your current manager marked you as inconsistent or if you think GP is calling all people "who are trying to improve as inconsistent"

I'm a manager. I want to improve ALL of my team. To rephrase, I want each of my members to work on things that benefit themselves (they improve) and benefit the team - if we can't do that, I zoom out: how can they benefit the team, department, the company, the industry, the world. You might notice this means I may find a better place for them on a different team or even outside the company. All of this. ALL OF THIS is trying to help the person in an area that he/she wants to grow in.

Growth opportunities are very diverse: coding a new language, learning at a seminar, teaching at a seminar, side projects, art, games, mentorship

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#206

Post by dqpb »

> Most days I can do somewhere between one and two hours of hard thinky work.

He then goes on to list all the hours of other stuff he does.

So it sounds like his main point is that he doesn’t spend 40 hours per week on pure “hard thinky work”.

I don’t see why that matters. All the other inter-personal and logistical work is also work.

More importantly, he doesn’t mention any of the time outside of work that he spends mulling things over in the back of his mind. That’s also work.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#207

Post by Ntrails »

wpietri wrote: post #181
beepbooptheory wrote: post #172

Have spent a lot of my life doing manual labor, and still slightly in that boat now but do have a proper office job (receptionist). it was incredible for me to experience my first office job and realize this general fact. Not only was my body not sore everyday, but my day was suddenly largely my own, my "labor" was suddenly not defined necessarily by constant action. I dont even really have to think as much as I did…

It's a huge privilege! In high school and college I worked a bunch of random jobs, including factory worker, McDonald's cook, and convenience store cashier. It helped me really appreciate the cushiness of office jobs. But in some ways, it's the source of ongoing frustration. Office culture IME is not very interested in getting direct work done. When I was on the McDonald's breakfast shift, I had a solid block of hour…

The only thing in an office that gets close to the buzz/flow of a busy service, is dealing with an outage/incident. I miss elements of it, for sure. I do not miss working hard for 50+ hours a week at less than minimum wage (woo salaried).

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#208

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

mywacaday wrote: post #168
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #87

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

Well done, sounds like a great setup you've created for yourself. I'm a manager and looking for a financially viable way out/back. I haven't coded since I left college and and have some small ideas for some side projects, has anyone here hired offshore coders for small projects like an addin for outlook etc?

It was a long time coming. My stint as a manager helped me to make some great relationships, and I know that I helped a lot of other ICs have great careers, and great personal lives. None of us got rich, and there wasn't a whole lot of crazy (until the last couple of years, when we worked with an American startup, and I couldn't shield my team from the dysfunction).

One of my dreams, was to be in a place, where I could create and craft my own work, without having others take steamers onto it. It's personally gratifying, to know that all the "I could do this better if..." stuff was absolutely right.

These days, I have to keep the scope small, and, still, no one is getting rich, but I am pretty chuffed with what I'm doing.

Can't put a price on that.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#209

Post by indymike »

qzx_pierri wrote: post #188
indymike wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a hands on contributor and manager for long time. I do three things that seem to make this a lot more functional: 1) I pick what I'm going to work on after the rest of the team picks their tickets. 2) I fix one bug per day, not matter what. 3) HIPPO (HIghest Paid Person's Opinion) is not an acceptable reason to make a decision. It's worked well for me, your milage may vary.

At least that's what you think. I'm sure your direct reports have a lot of opinions on that setup that they'll never reveal. I say this with 100% confidence.

> I'm sure your direct reports have a lot of opinions on that setup that they'll never reveal.

Then I'll never know how to make things better. It's dysfunctional when you can't communicate safely and equally dysfunctional when problems are hidden for fear of a manager's ego.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#210

Post by hiptobecubic »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #176
_n_b_ wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, your main job is to make your ICs effective at doing their work. That means you need to be dealing with poor performers, rewarding with outstanding performers, trying to improve uneven performers, managing expectations from your management and shielding your team from the vicissitudes of your bosses as much as possible, fighting for things your team needs while shielding them from the demoralizing reali…

Yeah, well...the consensus seems to be that I was a decent manager. I hated the job, but they kept me for 27 years, so I guess something went well. Glad it's behind me, though.

27 years is a long time to stay in a job you hate.
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