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People don't work as much as they say

drmaciver.substack.com

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Re: People don't work as much as they say

#131
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm many doctors work insane hours, which are hard to even imagine for people who do office jobs. The notion that you can only do 4 hours of productive work a day is frankly a luxury. If you have 10 hours of work to do, all of which is essential for people's immediate wellbeing, you find ways of being productive.

This is almost certainly taking a toll on the doctors health. They’re stuck in that situation because of unions, but that isn’t the case for an SWE. We shouldn’t be expected to work at our healths expense.

How are unions responsible for doctors’ long work hours? According to a quick google there are very low rates of unionization and it seems to be a recent phenomenon (I didn’t know there were any.)

Downvotes for asking a Q?

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#132
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm many doctors work insane hours, which are hard to even imagine for people who do office jobs. The notion that you can only do 4 hours of productive work a day is frankly a luxury. If you have 10 hours of work to do, all of which is essential for people's immediate wellbeing, you find ways of being productive.

I've never seen a convincing explanation for why doctors work these long hours that didn't boil down to 'the doctors union restricts the supply of new doctors and limits the tasks that can be delegated to non-doctors'. As a result, the regular mention of their long hours generally just makes me angry at them rather than grateful to them, but I guess I'm in the minority.

I don't think it's as simple as you imagine. Any time you're delegating a task from someone who has double digit years of training to someone who (perhaps) has only a couple, you are likely (but not always) increasing the probability of error, and errors in this domain have real consequences. This includes potential for malpractice lawsuits because "the lazy doctor had their nurse doing all the work".

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#133
Like the author, I am usually good for two periods of about 90 minutes a day of extreme thinking work. I feel fine about this because in a sense I am always working, even if I just have a few peak periods a day. When I have a job, just about 100% of my intellectual life is thinking about the tech that can help my employer. If I want to read a tech article after dinner, it is just about always about something that might help the business.

I maintain work/life balance by taking a year off work between jobs. In these down time periods I both research a broad spectrum of things that interest me, and that is when I write my books.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#134

I’ve been reading some variant of this, for many years. One of the reasons that I hated being a manager, was because the job involved a lot of sitting around, waiting for stuff to happen. I couldn’t work on my own projects (because I was on paid work time), and it would have been irresponsible, in the extreme, to put myself into the critical path (because it was no guarantee that I would be able to reliably work). I…

As a manager, I quickly realized that trying to be a technical contributor was a subtle and insidious form of micromanagement. Also, I could give myself my pick of the coolest tasks, which was unfair.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#135
post #114
post #37

> Most days I can do somewhere between one and two hours of hard thinky work. Wow. Once I start doing this kind of work I both have a hard time stopping (as I find working on such problems addictive, both in good ways and in bad) and feel like it takes at least a couple hours of loading state into my brain before I could even begin to be working "at speed" on a hard problem, which means I actively try to schedule my…

That's great until a PM schedules a quick meeting to make sure your progress is tracking their spreadsheet line. And there are 4 or 5 PMs. You end up with your days split into 6 or 7 segments between quick standups and triage meetings and status meetings and emergency customer calls where you're brought in "just in case" and because it takes at least a half hour of concentration just to get back into the zone, your w…

> [B]ecause it takes at least a half hour of concentration just to get back into the zone, your week has passed without you spending any productive time doing hard thinky work.

And when that half hour itself is semi-routinely[0] interrupted, the whole cycle becomes a form of aversion therapy conditioning you to avoid even attempting to concentrate.

Once you're stuck in that rut, you're really screwed because every failed attempt to break out of the cycle just reinforces it, and not being interrupted just means you're worrying about being interrupted instead.

[0] As with other processes, intermittent reinforcement is far more effective than consistency.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a convincing explanation for why doctors work these long hours that didn't boil down to 'the doctors union restricts the supply of new doctors and limits the tasks that can be delegated to non-doctors'. As a result, the regular mention of their long hours generally just makes me angry at them rather than grateful to them, but I guess I'm in the minority.

Some of it is capitalism. Here’s a nice introduction to private equity in radiology. https://www.benwhite.com/medicine/the-private-equity-model-i... Now with surgery? Again there’s some capitalism but also surgery is hard. Extremely hard. Here’s a link to a common surgery for orthopedics for example. They have to memorize these procedure steps and be very quick. Time on the table for the patient matters for money and…

I don't think there is any country in the world where doctors work for 40 hours, regardless of the economic model.

The world of human disease places some limitations on what can be done. Many people either do not have the grit or the stomach to become doctors (I could easily learn the theory, but I couldn't cope with all the blood, pus, vomit and frequent feeling of helplessness). People develop critical problems at 2 am. A doctor should know their patients and vice versa; they aren't fungible and ping-ponging a sick person between shifts tends to worsen the outcomes.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#137
post #43

Valuable prospective, but (as is the gist of half my comments here): People are even more different than you think. RescueTime wrote a similar post, but +100 data: https://rescuetime.wpengine.com/work-life-balance-study-2019... Look at the second histogram. The average is roughly aligned with OP’s summary, but there is huge variance. These comments have already devolved into people telling each other they are lying,…

I’ve logged my work time (automatically with time tracking apps) for over a decade. I’ve also done a significant amount of hourly-rate consulting where I’m very careful to only bill for actual working time.

When I was younger, one of my early challenges was that I had been misled to believe that only time spent in the editor, writing code counted as “working”. There’s a somewhat pervasive idea among devs that meetings, e-mail, communications, team discussions, and other such facts of business do not count as work when you’re a programmer. It led to some anxiety before I accepted that collaboration and communication is also work, something that seems obvious in retrospect but was difficult to swallow as a young programmer raised on Internet forums.

Some people default to the other extreme, where they seem to count every hour as “work” if they did anything remotely related to work during that hour. By now, I’ve worked with a lot of people who claim 60-80 hour work weeks simply because they check their phone and type out single-sentence replies in Slack or e-mails on evenings and weekends. Some of the laziest, least productive people I've worked with are the same people posting on LinkedIn on Sunday morning about their 80 hour grinds every week.

Two better metrics I’ve found for gauging productivity are total hours spent in work mode (in the office, or sitting at my home office desk) and total time spent in time wastes (Hacker News, non-work Slacks, Twitter, and so on). If I’m accumulating more than 30 minutes commenting on HN or scrolling Twitter, it’s a sign that I’m not really engaged with work and I need to shake things up.

I’ve shared my time tracking tools and techniques with a lot of people that I’ve mentored. It’s some times shocking for someone to realize that they’ve been spending 4 hours on social media (Discords, HN and Reddit are social media) during a what’s supposed to be a workday. Many of them gauge their own level of focus as average or better than average before actually tracking it. They might even be surrounded by friends or peers who engage in the same amount of distraction during the day, reinforcing their own behavior. Usually once they see what they’re doing as a hard number they can take steps to break the habit, but for some it’s so deeply engrained that they don’t understand what they’re doing until they see it as a number.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's easier to code all day long than how easy it feels to improve your life. Especially if one excels at work and lacks a social network in life.

100% agree. If you are good at coding, then you code for a day and create something you are proud of. +1 to self worth. You send it for code review or deploy and you get positive feedback. +2 to self worth. A junior dev in house or browsing your open source project loves your code and asks for advice. +3 to self worth. Compared to. Go out to a social event for lunch, struggle through the social interactions. Maybe dr…

> End your day without any self worth reward and struggle the next day due to the alcohol or paranoia of reliving the previous day.

There are definitely ways to mitigate this way of thinking, one being understanding the "spot light effect" the "phenomenon where people tend to overestimate how much others notice aspects of one's appearance or behavior."

Also to do more structured based social activities.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#139
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artists and musicians specifically get a lot of social prestige. Similarly for actors. That's part of why many people are willing to have a go at these careers despite the well-known abysmal earning expectations. It's just a lot of very willing supply and rather limited demand that depresses monetary earnings for labour in these sectors. Compare also pay and conditions for programmers in the games industry vs those w…

Artists and musicians specifically get a lot of social prestige. Similarly for actors. No, they - in general - do not. A few get this. A few more lucky folks make a living off of it. In the case of an artist, you are probably doing commissions and spend a lot of time on social media, in the post office, and such things just to tread water. Comic artists and animators you've never heard of go about their day in invisi…

To remove some of the weasel words:

Posing with a guitar will help you get laid. Even if you don't play remotely well enough to make any money, or for anyone to really care about your music.

Re: People don't work as much as they say

#140
I used to work pretty long hours (worked 2 jobs - back when I had first kid and was still under mortgage).

Now I spend more time with my kids and try to work as little as I can (optimize "productivity pulse", while minimize total time on computer)

This is my data of 2018 and 2019 respectively:

- https://www.dropbox.com/s/s8881zv58wzve33/2018.png?dl=0

- https://www.dropbox.com/s/55v7g4cn7ol0ix2/2019.png?dl=0

Some personal observations:

- On average, I achieve 75% productivity pulse

- There are some crazy days where I worked over 15 hrs, with maybe 10 ~ 11hrs being productive (read: code)

- Since I was moonlighting, I was most productive on the morning (9am - noon) and after 10pm (kids went to sleep)

- I don't meditate much, but working out really really help!

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