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How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

charity.wtf

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Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#41

Post by totalZero »

samatman wrote: post #34
bawolff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it can be a bit of a canary. People who are assholes tend to be extra-assholey to out-groups (which often is minorities). If members of minority groups don't want to work somewhere it usually means that the people who work there are assholes.

You haven't had enough jobs to make a statement like that, no one has. Your effortless translation of "90% white" to "assholes" is a bit of a tell. For instance, you're white, and used to thinking this kind of trashing a group of people is ok because of your socially dominant position. Because these whites resemble you physically right? But of course you mean the bad whites; you're one of the good whites! It isn't ok…

I think the point was that diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people, because those bad people behave in ways that undermine heterogeneity...especially by mistreating the people who are different.

Since racial heterogeneity is a more easily observable situation than, say, diversity of opinion, it's a healthy sign of a tolerant culture. That doesn't mean that a workplace lacking racial heterogeneity is bad. It simply lacks the canary. (If I'm interpreting GP properly.)

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#42

Post by megumax »

I don't think that a `diverse` environment represents a healthy environment. For now, `diversity` is just a buzzword like `machine learning`, `artificial intelligence` or `internet of things`. I believe that people should be hired based on their skills (including social skills).

In order to find out that the company is friendly, you should ask people that worked/are working there.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#43

Post by samatman »

totalZero wrote: post #41
samatman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't had enough jobs to make a statement like that, no one has. Your effortless translation of "90% white" to "assholes" is a bit of a tell. For instance, you're white, and used to thinking this kind of trashing a group of people is ok because of your socially dominant position. Because these whites resemble you physically right? But of course you mean the bad whites; you're one of the good whites! It isn't ok…

I think the point was that diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people, because those bad people behave in ways that undermine heterogeneity...especially by mistreating the people who are different. Since racial heterogeneity is a more easily observable situation than, say, diversity of opinion, it's a healthy sign of a tolerant culture. That doesn't mean that a workplace lacking racial heterogeneity is…

> diversity is often lacking in situations with bad people

Do you mean, like, ethnic crime gangs? Those come in white flavors too.

You, and GP, are just making stuff up that confirms your prejudices. You have no evidence of what you're saying whatsoever! All you're doing is stringing sentences together. What if I find one team of ten whites who are great to work with (say you're, I dunno Tongan?) and a team with every Benneton stripe who suck?

The kind of thinking you two are promoting here just throws that information right out the window, in favor of, what? Bad heuristics?

What should we call that? Stereotyping, right?

This is people's livelihood you're messing with here.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#44

Post by tomp »

bawolff wrote: post #21
peakaboo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity has nothing to do with company culture being good or bad in most cases. Example: Let's say the company has 100 employees and 90 of them are white and 10 of them are black. As a white engineer, it won't help you if they invite more black people to work there. It's much harder to know if 90% of them are assholes and diversity will never help with that.

In my experience it can be a bit of a canary. People who are assholes tend to be extra-assholey to out-groups (which often is minorities). If members of minority groups don't want to work somewhere it usually means that the people who work there are assholes.

People forget that (1) women are not a minority, and (2) that tech is one of the kost diverse industries (full of Asians, Indians, immigrants, …)

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#45

Post by tomp »

isoprophlex wrote: post #35
ospzfmbbzr wrote: post #23

If you get any sniff of non-meritocracy - run!

Meritocracy is a lie, a device to help rationalize the advancement of in-groups over other less privileged groups. An analogy: as a parent you should probably not reward purely on naked results; you should stimulate and reward effort instead. The first option just reinforces existing traits; the second empowers actual self-improvement. Not saying this is always easy or clear-cut. I understand the wish for getting rew…

Meritocracy is an ideal that is almost by definition unachievable. Like freedom, equality, etc. It’s a very worthy ideal.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#46

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

lordnacho wrote: post #20
hu3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my ignorance. What's MD in this context?

Managing Director, it's a sort of middle management role that a lot of people aspire to. Running a team, getting paid fairly decently.

It does vary, but I wouldn't describe Managing Director as a team lead. In the UK it was often equivalent to CEO. It could be the head of a business unit.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#47

Post by danaris »

tomp wrote: post #44
bawolff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it can be a bit of a canary. People who are assholes tend to be extra-assholey to out-groups (which often is minorities). If members of minority groups don't want to work somewhere it usually means that the people who work there are assholes.

People forget that (1) women are not a minority, and (2) that tech is one of the kost diverse industries (full of Asians, Indians, immigrants, …)

That's why I prefer the term "marginalized groups".

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#48

Post by gray_-_wolf »

I do not see how diversity is a relevant factor. You can have a very diverse, shitty company and great non-diverse company. Anecdotal evidence: Company where I work at is likely not diverse according to woke standards, but it is a great place to work at.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#49

Post by gray_-_wolf »

WithinReason wrote: post #16
awakeasleep wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a shibboleth virtue signal. Neither side takes it at face value

I wonder if we're headed to a point where this kind of self-selection basically creates companies consisting of either people who are all about DEI, or people who only care about skills/qualification, then the market will decide which one is the winning strategy.

The DEI people seem to me like they have a tendency to try to enforce their view via legislation. So I'm skeptical about the "market will decide" part.

Re: How can you tell if the company youre interviewing with is rotten on the inside?

#50

Post by danaris »

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #19
Juliate wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting _the_ job, not necessarily. Getting a job in a decent and self-aware team, on the other hand, yes, that's a good strategy. The question is both a direct and an indirect one.

A decent and self-aware work team is one who treats each other as equals and respect and keeps their political beliefs outside the work environment. An iterviewee who brings race into the discussion clearly doesn't understand work/personal boundries and is going to be a liability.

Sorry, the work environment is inherently political these days.

I'll "keep my political beliefs outside the work environment" when it's no longer political to say that

- Women, queer people, and minorities should be hired, treated, and paid the same as straight cis white men

- Abusive and exploitative treatment of workers is unacceptable

- Every human being deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of where they are on a corporate org chart

You say people should "keep their political beliefs outside the work environment" as if the managers, directors, C-suite, etc aren't imposing their political beliefs on us every moment of every day.

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