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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

311–320 of 484 posts

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#311

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

He can certainly sue the US government for accusing him publicly without enough evidence to prosecute, and the resulting loss of compensation. Now, it's not exactly affordable for him to do so. But that's a separate problem we should solve.

For a successful academic, making a bunch of money in a lawsuit is the polar opposite of what they want to do with their life.

If you value doing science and inventing things and mentoring students and the prestige that comes along with it, simply getting a payday isn't anything like justice. Of course, such lawsuits serve more than simply attempting to actually get justice (which is usually impossible) but to dissuade the state from doing it again to others.

Which is cold comfort when all you wanted to do was play with heat transfer. He said he doesn't even want to apply for grant funding anymore, and I can't blame him. You don't become a professor studying heat transport because you're psyched to go toe to toe with the department of justice over made up nonsense that already wasted a year of your career directly and screwed up decades of accumulated talent and reputation.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#313

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

That's true and that's unfortunate. At the same time, how do you balance national security versus avoiding situations like this one? One of my takeaways from studying the McCarthy era was that there really were a lot of spies and communist sympathizers in America at the time. It wasn't some figment of someone's imagination. Likewise, I think we have good reason to proceed under the assumption that China is trying to…

I’m not sure that is the right takeaway. The US espouses freedom. Unless someone is actually spying, their personal beliefs and political affiliations shouldn’t be subject to government scrutiny.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#314

> The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died. Chen moved to the US to experie…

Oh come on, lets not blatantly lie like this. China's "Cultural Revolution" was a mass extermination of the educated people in the country. There's zero comparison between the two.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

With all due respect, this is completely irrelevant. This same technology and better is being sold out to countries like Saudi Arabia[1] and Israel[2], which are not exactly shining beacons of human rights. What seems to be the argument here ? "If China wants to use US tech to oppress and kill people with no regard for human rights and the rule of law... they have to PAY for it first, like all respectable totalitaria…

Your point being: since the US provides aid to countries whose human rights records are controversial China should be free to steal and misuse US intellectual property. Great argument. Have fun in a world where China's views on human rights prevail. I'm sure you & your family and their families will be very happy.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" There are a number of issues at play here and I can speak to several of them, having either helped the federal government directly or having knowledge of industrial espionage in my industry at the time (semiconductors). Some technology is expo…

I am a professor in the field of cryptography and there are export restrictions here as well. Under no circumstances would I allow the US government to block publication of my papers or talks based on the theory that my speech is “a technology export.” It’s not even clear that this would be allowed under the First Amendment. The government could obviously try to advance that theory, but I strongly suspect they would…

ETA2: every scientist should include a statement that they believe they have complied with necessary regulations but that to evaluate and comply with them completely and consistently is an onerous burden and that they are operating in good faith, and welcome an audit.

Audits (if they aren't biased or motivated) can determine whether the failure to comply was ignorance, or intentional, and if ignorant, was it criminally so?

I mean, I've filed for NIH grants and there were parts that were self-contradictory and parts that my institution wouldn't let us do, so we always had to send it off to Contracts and Grants. Several proposal that I considered completely legit failed C&G review.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#317

> The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died. Chen moved to the US to experie…

Oh come on, lets not blatantly lie like this. China's "Cultural Revolution" was a mass extermination of the educated people in the country. There's zero comparison between the two.

A 10 year event encompassing a country’s worth of people leads to many secondary and tertiary effects can mean something different for every person.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

false equivalence. If you actually cared you would acknowledge the vast difference between China's human rights record and that of the United States.

Interesting. So you think morality is quantifiable? Like it's fine to violate X amount of human rights but not X + 1. I'd like to hear your criteria.

If you think genocide, ethnic cleansing, natural resource exploitation on a global scale, modern day slavery & deadly global pathogen release are equivalent to US misconduct I wouldn't know where to begin in engaging with you.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#319

This is a troubling story in so many ways, I don't know what the answer to the problem is but feel something needs to change within the government when people are subjected to what can only be described as a witch trial bordering on McCarthyism. The fact the state and his own lawyer were pressing him to take a deal is also very troubling as it echoes the plight of many impoverished young men who lost their families,…

I don't get what the issue is here. He wasn't put in jail, and he was acquitted. The system worked correctly.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#320

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world Yes. It completely bankrupted and destroyed the Canadian company Nortel [1]. Sure there were other problems that led to the downfall of Nortel, but this was a major contributing factor and has had a big impact on the Canadian tech ecosystem. https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita...

This shouldn't be a surprise. The Avro airplane was similarly infiltrated by soviet spies back in the 50's, thanks to lax immigration standards and policies.

The thing is that, while Nortel was pretty much an open bar for technology transfers (Canada didn't seem to care), what killed the company was accounting fraud.

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