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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

181–190 of 484 posts

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a paranoia induced reaction that is being fostered by the media and the war industry, who are interested in creating a new cold war scenario.

Incorrect. It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

> It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

This 100%.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#182
There are two factors that come into play here in terms of regulations.

The first, and biggest, is the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). ITAR is the set of United States regulations that control the manufacture, sale, and distribution of defense and space-related articles and services as defined in the United States Munitions List (USML), https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-22/chapter-I/subchapter-M.... The USML is large, and broad in scope. It also still needs to be interpreted. These interpretations err on the side of 'an abundance of caution', due to the fines from violating regulations and the perceived threat to national security. ITAR regulations and policies are complex enough that most defense contracting firms have people who specialize in just ITAR and help others in the company deal with it. I have worked projects with multiple countries and can tell you that it is a pain to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts, even when working with countries that are our closest allies. Things that you might not think would be covered often are, or are interpreted to be covered. Let's say you designed a new type of paper clip. This paper clip[ is so much better that when it comes to organizing files and paperwork processing productivity its use is considered to provide a 'material advantage' to military units that use it. That likely would be export controlled under ITAR. I'm not debating whether it should or not, that is how it is.

The other factor is that modern conflict is multi-domain, and one of the biggest domains is economics. Corporate espionage is very real, and very state sponsored, around the world. That means that things like chip designs are very sought after.

I remember going to a particular standards conference. We had a huge upsurge in one country's delegates just before the conference (roughly a 3:1 increase), and during the conference I noticed the new delegates seemed more polished and less proficient than the ones I had worked with for a while and knew. The ones I knew also seemed deferential to the new delegates. Before the conference the matter came up with my employer. I've been told such situations are the norm rather than the exception.

It is because of these situations and the level of state actor activity, that the U.S. wants to know all your affiliations, even seemingly innocent ones. You sign a legal document, in effect testifying, that the associations you documented are accurate and complete to you knowledge. The penalties for not disclosing such associations are well known because they are spelled out. They are draconian because of the U.S. concern, and the causes of that concern are real. All sorts of cases can be made for that policy, and against it, but there is no away any researcher working for the government on DOD or DOD-tangential projects is ignorant of the policy.

As an anecdote, I knew another American colleague. Young guy, had a girlfriend in Canada (a relationship he disclosed). They decided to get married, and did (something he did not disclose). When the CO of the group he was doing his research for found out about it my colleague's employment and clearance were terminated, and he was judged a permanent security risk, meaning he could never again work a government contract - effectively ending his career.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#184

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

What’s the primary export of the United States? > Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" Are actual scientists concerned? Or just the state, and apparently most of the fellow commenters? It’s intellectual property. The majority of the worlds cutting edge research are designed, develo…

The majority, really? TSMC's fabs are in Taiwan, using ASML machines from the Netherlands. Much of their chips run ARM, from Cambridge. As I look at my tabs, I see Google Maps (invented by an Australian in Sydney), and Spotify (from Sweden).

The world is far, far, bigger than the USA; and as an Australian, I'd say it's extremely pretentious or naive to think the US has a 'majority' of cutting edge tech.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#185

> The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died. Chen moved to the US to experie…

Indeed. A former colleague married a Chinese lady whose parents had suffered badly through the Cultural Revolution. He told the story, how she went off to the US for her PhD and how her parents drove her to the airport and told her never to return to China. How things have changed within just a generation!

Can you elaborate how exactly? Was your former colleague sent to kill sparrows in rice fields too?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#186

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

A friend of mine is a scientist in a relevant field, and has caught Chinese PhD students photographing documents in one case, and taking a video recording of a sensitive part of a laboratory in another case. In both cases, what they were recording was not related to their own work. Not everything is published openly. Some research is kept quiet until the economic value has been realized, and sometimes the "what" is p…

This happens so often and so frequently that it makes me wonder if there is some official part of the Chinese government set up to consume and distribute this information.

I mean if an American went to a prestigious university or worked a job where they got access to sensitive information for a random company like lets say Ferrari. They wouldnt immediately know who to sell this info too or have a buyer. But it seems like we hear constant stories in such a way that makes me think they were already briefed on who to tell and get this info too.

Idk, maybe im being naive, maybe the CIA sends emails or reaches out to American nationals who work on sensitive projects.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#187

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

Industrial espionage can be an existential matter for companies. They rarely make the headlines but there's plenty of court cases like AMSC vs Sinovel, where Sinovel (China) stole the control software AMSC had developed and pretty much ruined them as a company.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#188

> The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died. Chen moved to the US to experie…

[deleted]

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#189

The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not. This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined. If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science. There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate…

This case went beyond false accusations. According to the professor's lawyers [0], the government possessed exculpatory evidence and knowingly withheld it from the defense -- a theoretically-illegal Brady violation [1].

>" As my team of lawyers argued, Bonavolonta and his agents ignored basic exculpatory evidence, failed to interview critical witnesses until after I was arrested, and dramatically embellished facts in various official documents. Exculpatory information that, under the Constitution, the prosecution was required to turn over — such as a witness saying that I never was in a talent program, a Chinese government initiative to provide funding to researchers and scientists, which was one of the government’s key allegations — was withheld for months until demanded by my lawyers. While I am relieved that my case has been dropped “in the interests of justice,” I respectfully request a thorough review of this matter by Congress and the US Department of Justice to hold individuals accountable for this glaring misconduct."

[0] https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/01/21/opinion/i-was-arreste...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_disclosure

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#190
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We cannot marginalize segments of our population based on race, nationality, religion, sex, etc. and expect to remain competitive. This is a basic truth of economics. And it's also wrong to do that to people in the first place. Americans are Americans and we all should be treated equally by our government.

Who says Chinese spies are ethnically Chinese? Charles Lieber isn’t ethnically Chinese. Money can corrupt regardless.

Exactly. The best Chinese spies wouldn't be ethnically Chinese at all, it'd be too obvious.
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