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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#161

Post by roywiggins »

ekianjo wrote: post #72
neither_color wrote: post #26

Last week, the government dismissed the case against Dr. Chen, which alleged that he had concealed seven Chinese affiliations in applications for $2.7 million in grants from the U.S. Energy Department. Prosecutors announced that they had received new information indicating that Dr. Chen had not been obliged to disclose those affiliations, undercutting the basis of the case. I feel like this part could use more detail…

sounds indeed like mistrial rather that the allegations having no validity at all. The NYT doing quality reporting as usual in a long piece of fluff.

Not a mistrial. The government agency that issued the grants told the prosecutors that he hadn't mislead them. Hard to prosecute someone for wire fraud when the supposed victim is saying that not only is the defendant innocent, no crime happened at all.

> In recent weeks, however, officials at the Department of Energy have told prosecutors that Dr. Chen had no obligation to declare the seven affiliations, calling into question the basis of the charges.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/20/science/gang-chen-mit-chi...

I still have a lot of questions about how this prosecution happened and how it took this long for it to be dropped...

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#162

Post by aceazzameen »

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #126
coliveira wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a paranoia induced reaction that is being fostered by the media and the war industry, who are interested in creating a new cold war scenario.

Incorrect. It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

I'm pretty sure US companies aren't thinking about the morality of it at all. Only $$$ lost and shareholders' emotions.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#163

Post by hiptobecubic »

jacobolus wrote: post #83
andi999 wrote: post #48

"The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China." No, it is not. Why would it be a setback if somebody who is innocent has their case dismissed. I mean who writes such lines? Doesnt this line imply that this dismissal was a bad thing (since nobody endorses espionage).

The purpose of the China Initiative was ostensibly to root out industrial espionage. Instead they ended up investigating and prosecuting a bunch of Chinese scientists for legally trying to advance their work and careers, and haven’t yet discovered much if any industrial espionage. The worst they’ve found so far, from what I can tell, is a few undisclosed grants and minor visa violations. Having incompetent, overzealo…

"The collateral damage from this error is a setback for the China Initiative, as it undermines public support for the program and discourages legitimate researchers from applying for government funding, hurting US scientific progress."

Was that so hard?

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#164

Post by wizzwizz4 »

retrac wrote: post #101
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think “communist ideas” is well-defined. Could you explain what you mean by the phrase?

Not OP but it seemed unambiguous to me given "countries that have adopted". The countries that proclaimed themselves communist at some point -- the Soviet Union, China, Yugoslavia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Angola, etc. (Most no longer exist, only Cuba, Vietnam, China and Laos are governed by self-described communist parties today.)

What about countries that only adopted two “communist ideas”? What if a country adopted hundreds of them, but didn't call itself communist? What if No True Communist Society does XYZ thing that all of the countries on your list have done?

You can't talk effectively about something until everybody agrees on what the words mean.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#165

Post by Aperocky »

ethanbond wrote: post #94
lordnacho wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also accusations of nothing specific. "Association with China" doesn't seem like it's specific enough to warrant sanction, all it can do it make people suspicious, which it does regardless of whether you've even done anything with China. I accept the US is having a power struggle with China at the moment, but this is not the way to win it. People who aren't actually in favor of freedom will welcome this "rec…

Errr... pretty sure the allegation is more specific than you suggest. The allegation was that he was being paid by China and did not disclose this on grant applications.

Case was closed, allegation was rejected.

Witch hunt begins when allegation holds more weight then the verdict, and when it becomes the verdict, you can say goodbye to all semblance of rule of law, which surprisingly many here will condone depending on the subject.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#166

Post by commandlinefan »

cm2012 wrote: post #159
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

You can't be serious about opsec and not take seriously the risk of an internal bad actor with access to your systems.

Yeah, that was my thought - they treat everybody like a spy, because that's literally their job description.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#168

Post by notreallyserio »

hiptobecubic wrote: post #147

> The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China. How is this a setback? The goal is to prevent espionage, not harass and punish people for being Chinese. Honestly, what has happened to the NYT? When did they get so bad at this? They were the most well-regarded newspaper in the world and now they read like madlibs.

It's a setback because it's another case of overzealous prosecution that fell apart because the basis was entirely false. In the end they harmed the career of a scientist because he had some affiliation with China, which, duh, he grew up there. It calls into question the basis of the whole initiative.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#169

Post by ren_engineer »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

>Surely, everyone is working on different things here and there, but this idea that there is such critical intellectual property the US that needs to be guarded so intensely in this like James Bond scenario, just feels a little wacky

lots of technology that took billions of dollars and decades to develop? Why would you give that away for free?

Protecting IP isn't some new thing, humans have done it for thousands of years

>As Constantine Porphyrogennetos' warnings show, the ingredients and the processes of manufacture and deployment of Greek fire were carefully guarded military secrets.

>The technological advantage it provided was responsible for many key Byzantine military victories, most notably the salvation of Constantinople from the first and second Arab sieges, thus securing the Empire's survival

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#170

Post by Gormo »

lucian1900 wrote: post #135
FredPret wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, on the other hand, seem to have internalized a class-based worldview. I'm not sure that's healthy either

Class struggle is the engine of history. Whether that fact is healthy for myself personally or not has no bearing on its truth. The company I work for keeps more of the value I create than they pay me. Whether I like it or not, I'm working class and in direct opposition to capitalists.

All exchange is predicated upon each party gaining more utility from what they get than by retaining what they give up. The company you work for retains the goods/services you sold them and enjoys a net increase in utility, and you retain the compensation they provided in exchange, and enjoy your own net increase in utility as a result.

On top of that, the ultimate consumption utility enjoyed at the terminus of the entire chain of production is not something you are individually responsible for; you aren't creating the final value, only offering your own marginal contribution of value by selling your own goods and services to your own particular customer.

The concept of "class" does not factor into the reality of any of this.

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