The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#901

Post by watersb » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:05 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #876

watersb wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually want to hear good reasons for avoiding vaccinations, because many people care a lot about that. I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. I don't agree with an argument from stand-my-ground,…

> I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. This is exactly backwards from reality. The groups you mentioned are at much higher risk from covid and ergo it is much more important to vaccinate. The risk…

I suggested immune-compromised people as a group who might need to avoid a vaccination because their immune response isn't working.

They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine.

There are certainly degrees of immune system pathology. If you are receiving medical care for such a situation, by all means please follow your doctors instructions and not mine!

Re: The case against masks at school

#902

Post by watersb » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:15 AM UTC

pcmoney wrote: post #543

uoaei wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not and no we are not. You are advocating the sacrifice of lives which are not your own, which is unequivocally reprehensible.

It is endemic. Its everywhere. Its mutating. Humanity has never stopped the spread of similar coronaviruses and even if we could the death rate/risk is not bad enough to justify the cost (this isnt smallpox/polio) We have vaccines. They don’t stop you from getting it or transmitting it. They do lower probability of the vaccinated person getting severe/fatal covid. Clearly a personal health decision that should not be…

> Life goes on. (Me: triple vaxxed and have had Covid 2x)

I can't agree with a lot of what you are posting here, but this totally got my attention.

You've had all your shots, and had covid twice so far? Can you say more about that? How bad was it for you?

My daughter had a mild case, weeks after 2nd vaccination, when she returned to college last Fall. She was ok.

I think that if everyone could do what you've done, we'd be able to figure out if we're at a modern influenza situation already. But the crush in the hospitals is real. We're not there yet.

Re: The case against masks at school

#903

Post by another_story » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:16 AM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #797

another_story wrote: post #508

In Taiwan we've been wearing masks for over 2 years with near zero complaint at school. I have to remind a few kids a day to put it over their nose. We've had Omicron here for awhile, but it's still only a trickle of cases, with no exponential explosion. The policies here, with contact tracing, quarantine and masks, have kept things open and people from dying. I don't understand the hesitancy.

Taiwan isn’t suffering from near 50% obesity though…

That doesn't have anything to do with case count and lack of spread, though.

Re: The case against masks at school

#904

Post by autoexec » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:17 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #431

autoexec wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People keep saying this, but if hospital capacity was actually the "real" bottleneck in treating covid then why haven't we seen massive campaigns to expand that capacity? You mean like calling in the national guard to help alleviate the problem or busing in nurses from all over the country, or creating temporary wards, or fighting to get more ventilators and medications? All of those things and more have been happe…

Nurses in Boston have been striking for almost a year. I've seen one instance of calling in the national guard recently, and ventilators are no longer the preferred treatment protocol in every case. I haven't seen a single effort to literally build more hospital wings with ICU beds. Have you? >Not only are you minimizing the benefits here CDC's own studies did this, not me. >but you're prioritizing potential outcomes…

> Nurses in Boston have been striking for almost a year

I'm surprised more haven't been. Nurses are being outright abused, but that doesn't change the fact that nurses are being asked to travel great distances to help with staffing issues. The whole situation in nursing is a huge mess right now for a lot of reasons.

> I've seen one instance of calling in the national guard recently

you should be paying more attention to the news, or possibility looking critically at where you're getting your news from since it's not serving you very well. I don't know which one you heard about but your list should include Washington, Georgia, Ohio, Oregon, Maine, New York, and New Hampshire. New Mexico has also called in the national guard because of omicron, but they want troops acting as substitute teachers.

> and ventilators are no longer the preferred treatment protocol in every case

That doesn't mean they aren't being used by covid patients or that hospitals aren't still struggling with a shortage of them. see here for example: https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257168037...

> I haven't seen a single effort to literally build more hospital wings with ICU beds. Have you?

Yes I have. Most hospitals don't want to add entire new wings full of beds because covid isn't going to be like this forever, but in just the last few months here are some examples of hospitals doing wherever they can to add capacity: https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-nursing-homes-covid-...

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2775

https://www.wpr.org/mayo-clinic-puts-hospital-beds-ambulance...

https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article257323822.htm...

This is on top of all the beds and overflow centers hospitals have been adding over the last two years. It's not that every hospital is waiting until they have people dying outside their doors to start adding beds either. One of the best US hospitals for heart surgeries is just outside of Chicago and they've renovated parts of their old partially demolished hospital building to keep on standby so they can handle covid cases in case they get overwhelmed like so many others have. It's a pretty smart way to gain some extra ICU space while keeping costs down.

Your facts are just very wrong or very incomplete. I recommend looking into this stuff a bit more using new sources.

Re: The case against masks at school

#905

Post by michaelmrose » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:28 AM UTC

watersb wrote: post #901

michaelmrose wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. This is exactly backwards from reality. The groups you mentioned are at much higher risk from covid and ergo it is much more important to vaccinate. The risk…

I suggested immune-compromised people as a group who might need to avoid a vaccination because their immune response isn't working. They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine. There are certainly degrees of immune system pathology. If you are receiving medical care for such a situation, by al…

I don't wish to be disrespectful but its undesirable to give life alteringly bad medical advice on a public forum. Saying hey don't listen to me listen to your doc after you gave advice that would literally lead to a portion of readers to actually die is in a word insufficient.

>They won't exhibit an immune response to COVID spike proteins. From the virus, from a conventional vaccine, or from their own cells' production following an mRNA vaccine.

This is absolutely untrue. Most people who are immunocompromised have an immune system that works poorly not none. They are worse off than others as far as mortality and morbidity with the vaccine and without it compared to healthier individuals but they are absolutely able to develop antibodies and benefit from vaccination.

The CDC says they are 65-80% less likely to end up in the ER presenting with covid if vaccinated and boosted.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm...

Immunocompromised people that took your advice would be 3-5x more likely to die if infected with covid and given prevalence will very likely to be infected in the year ahead of us. Please refrain from giving medical advise without first taking the time to understand the topic you are speaking on. It's more important not to spread health misinformation than chat on business and tech.

Re: The case against masks at school

#906

Post by hiptobecubic » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 7:58 AM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #868

dsl wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Yeah, your kids might be a bit dumber or less socially adjusted. What absolute lunancy; certainly you're trolling. Taking the position of sacrificing children is the position of the villain movies.

The argument is that we make this trade off in order to minimize the maximum terribleness, not just because it's convenient.

Fwiw, we name this trade-off all the time. If you think your kid is getting the best possible experience for their development at school then you are pretty naive. School is largely about improving worst case educational outcomes, not fostering maximum growth.

Re: The case against masks at school

#907

Post by watwut » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:06 AM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #461

perardi wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYTimes has a pretty good source on this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-... I'll tell you that here in Chicago, based off data, and anecdotes: really depends on the neighborhood. Vaccinated areas? Doing fine. Undervaccinated areas? Not doing so well. Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

> I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are vaccinated.

I am not so sure. HN is the most "covid is just a flu, masks and respirators dont matter, teachers should teach when sick with covid those lazy bastards" place I regularly visit. I would be surprised if vaccination rates did not followed the same general political alignement.

Re: The case against masks at school

#908

Post by dehrmann » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:10 AM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #714

dsl wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know multiple households where the initial infection vector was the kids. Grandpa might be stupid and refuse the vaccine, but keeping little Billy from becoming a carrier lessens the hospital load. If screaming Karens are going to insist on in person learning, we need to mask test and vaccinate in the schools.

Yeah, but masks aren't doing much to prevent that. My kids go to an Oregon elementary school that requires full time masking and I can't think of a single kid who hasn't had it. COVID has run rampant through Oregon schools. I don't care what the lab studies show. Masks don't do shit in schools. The elderly and vulnerable need to get vaccinated, or be handled in a tent in the hospital parking lot. Stop punishing kids.…

> I don't care what the lab studies show. Masks don't do shit in schools.

According to the article, studies have said very little in a way that controls for variables. There haven't been great studies showing their effectiveness. The Bangladesh one said surgical masks were "modestly effective." Not that it matters. Omicron is so contagious masks are well past their usefulness.

Re: The case against masks at school

#909

Post by hiptobecubic » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:10 AM UTC

People are in here talking about how young kids don't wear masks correctly, but are they actually any worse than adults at it?

When I go out and see people "wearing masks" I frequently wonder if I'm in some alternate universe science fiction story where everyone on earth has been infected with a stupidity virus or blasted with brainwave-dampening radiation. Surely there must be some explanation for the people removing their masks to cough or talk or leaving their nose uncovered or wearing the mask so loosely that you can literally see their nose and mouth when they look down at something. Same goes for social distancing, hand washing... anything really. Any time there is a procedure, it seems that the average adult will fail to follow it correctly.

I'm pro mask-wearing because the reasoning makes sense to me, but I don't for a second think that we can meaningfully ask the general public to do anything more complicated than "stay home," which they refuse to do but at least understand.

Re: The case against masks at school

#910

Post by ericd » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:13 AM UTC

Zanneth wrote: post #726

ericd wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People over here in France are generally living pretty normally. Far from madness, it's pretty nice. Sure, everyone masks up and whips out their phone for constant QR scanning, but restaurants are still pretty full, trams busses and trains as well, and people are getting together. Schools are in person. It probably helps that home tests are cheap ($25 for 5) and super easy to get. It's frankly pretty weird that these…

Wearing masks and having to endure "constant QR scanning" doesn't sound like normal life to me.

The masks are if you want to go into mass transit or peoples’ businesses, and it’s mostly theater in restaurants - they come off and stay off almost immediately. It’s just common courtesy to others to wear them in public places while omicron is raging.

The QR code scanning is just for dining at the place (not takeout), and for things like long trains and planes. It’s not a big deal, except for the privacy implications.

My point was mostly that people aren’t holding back from going out, despite very high infection rates, and things appear to be mostly fine.