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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#571

Post by orangecat »

sleepybrett wrote: post #484
jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't think they are really saying that they absolutely don't work but that the evidence that they do is weak enough to justify removing the mandates. They address N95 mask in the article (did you read it) pointing out that they are more difficult to breath in and hinder communication more (I'll add my own point in that they are harder to keep a seal with which seems to be quite important according to the stud…

There are a couple of things happening. This 'they don't 100% work so we shouldn't even bother' bullshit .. is just that. Bullshit. What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks. Now granted our schools are, frankly, criminally underfunded. However that PPE could be supplied from outside the school's budget for those students that don't take care of the costs themselves. The other problem that i've…

What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks.

It's much more than that.

The other problem that i've been hearing from my public school teacher friends is that there are so many staff absences due to covid

Sure, and that's happening in schools with and without mask mandates. Unless you go into full hermit mode, you are going to be exposed to Omicron. And if you're young or vaccinated, that's very unlikely to be a big deal.

Re: The case against masks at school

#572

Post by psychlops »

concinds wrote: post #334
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Genuinely asking - What's stopping a country, or hospital, from saying: "we'll prioritize cancer patients, scheduled surgeries, normal operation; you come in with Covid respiratory distress, and we're full? Go away." From the government data I've found, Covid patients are about 5-20% of emergency department patients in the US[0]; in Switzerland that leaves a healthy amount of free beds[1] (though I'm sure staffing is…

Most people don't die from covid, they die with covid and their multiple comorbidities. I think it would bring up multiple issues. I have many questions about the approach. Would you turn away someone who is asymptomatic but covid positive? What if they were turned away due to false positive covid test? What if they contracted covid from the hospital? What if they are vaccinated and still get covid?

I suspect it could easily lead to broader exemptions and eventually bring up the issue of other infectious diseases not being treated.

Re: The case against masks at school

#573

Post by sleepybrett »

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #500
sleepybrett wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of things happening. This 'they don't 100% work so we shouldn't even bother' bullshit .. is just that. Bullshit. What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks. Now granted our schools are, frankly, criminally underfunded. However that PPE could be supplied from outside the school's budget for those students that don't take care of the costs themselves. The other problem that i've…

ah, so you didn't read the article I guess, because it never says that they don't work 100% just says the evidence that they do isn't great, it also covers what the writer sees at downsides (cost) to masking children. Its fine to have differing views but you should probably focus your arguments on the substance of article. The author laid out several very compelling paragraphs to back up her point along with sources…

1% effective is better than 0% effective. The best defense is defense in depth.

Re: The case against masks at school

#574

Post by remarkEon »

standardUser wrote: post #465
remarkEon wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The idea is to reduce the spread of the virus in order to protect everyone from a lack of hospital beds and exhausted medical staff. People keep saying this, but if hospital capacity was actually the "real" bottleneck in treating covid then why haven't we seen massive campaigns to expand that capacity? "Do this thing that is marginally beneficial for adults and potentially actively harmful long term for children to…

"why haven't we seen massive campaigns to expand that capacity?" Maybe we should, but we are talking about an astounding cost, with ongoing upkeep, for once-every-hundred-year events. And that's just for new facilities - we already have nursing shortages. Instead, we (and just about every other country) have used mitigation efforts to reduce the transmission rate when hospital capacity is threatened. It's a lot cheap…

I’m not following your point.

You say this is expensive and hard, but so what? Isn’t that what you do when a pandemic occurs?

You also point out we have a nursing shortage currently (we did before the pandemic as well). Isn’t that a reason why we should do this? Kill two birds with one stone … solve the prior nursing shortage with a training and hiring blitz.

Re: The case against masks at school

#575

Post by pcmoney »

sleepybrett wrote: post #568
gherkinnn wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. At some point you've got to ask if these measures are worth living for. It's winter in the northern hemisphere. It'd dark and it's cold. Keeping people locked up at home for a third season is absurd.

I live in seattle. It's dark and cold. Hell the mask helps, it's great for keeping my face warm. I don't consider myself locked up. I miss in person game nights the most, i miss dinner with friends (in a private home or restaurant) somewhat. We do gamenights online using videochat and products like roll20 and boardgame arena. It's not super awesome but it works for us for now. I leave the house, go on walks go shoppi…

You and your friends are well off and it looks like you dont have children and can work remote. Thats great!

Unfortunately most are living under wildly different and much more difficult circumstances that they are being asked to bear month after month with no end and with dubious effect.

Re: The case against masks at school

#576

Post by sokoloff »

sleepybrett wrote: post #484
jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't think they are really saying that they absolutely don't work but that the evidence that they do is weak enough to justify removing the mandates. They address N95 mask in the article (did you read it) pointing out that they are more difficult to breath in and hinder communication more (I'll add my own point in that they are harder to keep a seal with which seems to be quite important according to the stud…

There are a couple of things happening. This 'they don't 100% work so we shouldn't even bother' bullshit .. is just that. Bullshit. What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks. Now granted our schools are, frankly, criminally underfunded. However that PPE could be supplied from outside the school's budget for those students that don't take care of the costs themselves. The other problem that i've…

The cost of masked students is not just the purchase price of the masks. It’s that plus the reduction in learning (academic, linguistic, and social) from wearing the masks (and the masks being fussed over).

That total cost may (or may not) still support the decision to have a mask mandate for kids, but let’s not get confused and think the only cost is measured in dollars.

Re: The case against masks at school

#577

Post by danbolt »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #553
sometimeshuman wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no stigma these days for not starting a family kids and men can privately retreat into video games and pornography. When confronted about their selfish* lifestyle the above comment is convenient cover but it is not backed by solid data. I'd take birth in this past decade over birth in my decade any day. *I'd argue that not having at least one child and possibly adopting others is selfish assuming one has fin…

May I ask how old you are? From where I am, a "selfish" lifestyle of video games and porn replacing responsibility does not seem to be healthy long-term. I'm in my late 20s now, and the guys I know who are not working towards getting married and starting a family are pretty much all starting to experience some sort of constant existential anxiety.

Part of me thinks its the "working towards" part, independent of the family/marriage bit. I can't prove it though.

I think if you drop off the rails of a traditional lifestyle, you need to be ready to stand on your own two feet a little more when it comes to intrinsic motivation.

Re: The case against masks at school

#578

Post by adamrezich »

jmull wrote: post #487
adamrezich wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Masks aren't exactly burdensome. We make kids wear shirts and shoes, even when it's unnecessary in summer. Given the current situation, if you could magically set aside politics and the associated mouth-breathers (which of course we can't) wouldn't we actually demand proof that masks are a net negative before we stop mandating them? normally you're supposed to actually demand proof that something is a net positive…

> normally you're supposed to actually demand proof that something is a net positive before you start mandating it Are you unaware of the massive amounts of clear-cut evidence that properly worn quality masks substantially reduce the transmission of covid? Come on.

as other comments have said, why are we so obsessed with minimizing transmission as much as possible, seemingly regardless of cost or any other incidental negative outcomes, at this point in time? these are all things that made sense early on when we didn't know much and everyone was kind of panicky and the death counts were higher and the misinformation from China was prevalent.

but now in twenty twenty two, we can't just mandating things in order to reduce transmission of a respiratory virus, without considering what other nth-order effects said mandates will have. it's pure irresponsibility as the result of prescribed dogma.

Re: The case against masks at school

#579

Post by autoexec »

vanviegen wrote: post #427
autoexec wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad you can't know if you're sick or not until it's too late. It's one of the reasons this virus spreads so quickly. Even if you're not sick wearing masks also helps to protect you from getting sick. It's win/win for extremely minimal effort/inconvenience.

Extremely minimal? Masks make it a lot harder to communicate effectively. People are harder to understand, emotions are harder to read, speaking takes more effort. If communicating is the main thing you do all day, because you're a teacher for instance, that is a significant inconvenience.

> Extremely minimal?

compared to hospitals being overrun, people getting seriously ill and dying (2,200+ US deaths every day) continuing economic harm and disruptions in education yeah it's pretty small thing that it's a little harder to communicate because your voice is muffled and you cant watch people's lips form words.

Re: The case against masks at school

#580

Post by ericd »

sleepybrett wrote: post #499
pcmoney wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an open air room, the difference between walking past and sitting in the same room as is negligible. Total theatre, does nothing besides allowing restaurants and patrons to feel ok/that they are “doing something” and stay open.

Which is why indoor dining rooms should still be closed. Pretending we aren't living through a pandemic that is respiratory in nature is fucking madness. Maybe if we had locked down harder for longer and treated this thing seriously in the beginning we wouldn't be almost two years into this with no end in sight.

People over here in France are generally living pretty normally. Far from madness, it's pretty nice. Sure, everyone masks up and whips out their phone for constant QR scanning, but restaurants are still pretty full, trams busses and trains as well, and people are getting together. Schools are in person. It probably helps that home tests are cheap ($25 for 5) and super easy to get.

It's frankly pretty weird that these comment threads are always so ragey and judgey, let alone the ones on Twitter. Everyone should chill a bit and stop reading the news stories stoking fears - at some point the mental effects are riskier than the physical ones, and I'd say that many in this thread are well past this point.

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