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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#591

Post by ifyoubuildit »

watersb wrote: post #510
colpabar wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

I actually want to hear good reasons for avoiding vaccinations, because many people care a lot about that. I can understand immuno-compromised people, an underlying medical condition, for whom a vaccine may not work or may be dangerous. Undergoing chemotherapy treatment for cancer? Got it: vaccines won't help you (or anyone else) until you can get past the cancer. I don't agree with an argument from stand-my-ground,…

Having already had an infection before you were able to get vaccinated.

A recent CDC study [0] joins plenty of others from last year in showing that these people were at least as protected from infections and severe outcomes during delta as those who were vaccinated without a prior infection.

Avoiding getting something that offers little benefit and offers even small risks makes sense to me.

You've probably spent the last year being told these people are trying to murder your family though, so it also makes sense to me if you don't agree with this.

[0]: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

Re: The case against masks at school

#592

Post by EvanAnderson »

nradov wrote: post #477
baron816 wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My daughter is in pre-med. Apparently people are dropping out like flies This may not be a bad thing in the long run. There’s a shortage of medical professionals because the medical industry wants it that way. If the crisis becomes acute enough, the government will be forced to loosen regulations, and that would allow for more people to enter the field faster and more easily.

The shortage of physicians is primarily caused not by regulations but by lack of government funding for residency programs. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-fun...

It's good to remember that the AMA and other medical groups lobbied for capping the residency slots back in 1997 (when an "oversupply" of doctors was forecast).

From [1]:

> "The United States is on the verge of a serious oversupply of physicians," the AMA and five other medical groups said in a joint statement. "The current rate of physician supply -- the number of physicians entering the work force each year -- is clearly excessive."

> The groups, representing a large segment of the medical establishment, proposed limits on the number of doctors who become residents each year.

> The number of medical residents, now 25,000, should be much lower, the groups said. While they did not endorse a specific number, they suggested that 18,700 might be appropriate.

They've changed their tune (which I, cynically, think is because the members in the late 90s have all "gotten theirs" by now).

[0] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/thanks-to-doctors-there-a...

[1] https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-03-01-19970600...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/01/us/doctors-assert-there-a...

[3] https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/13/health/train-more-doctors-res...

[4] http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/24/doctor.glut/

Re: The case against masks at school

#593

Post by autoexec »

champagnois wrote: post #515
autoexec wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter. Putting literally anything in front of your virus spewing face hole is going to help to some degree. It's not as if the crook of our arms are rated to filter viruses, but that hasn't stopped health organizations all over the world from recommending the vampire cough for years. It's true that a mask alone isn't enough to guarantee anyone's safety and while community spread is high sending kids into…

Interventions work differently for different diseases. Influenza is significantly hampered by social distancing, surgical masks, and elbow coughs. Covid 19 is a different virus and the interventions of a flu pandemic are not going to yield the same results. Infection is a binary status. You are either infected or not. There is no such thing as half infected or slightly infected. The probability of infection goes up w…

> Covid 19 is a different virus and the interventions of a flu pandemic are not going to yield the same results.

The results don't have to be identical. As long as a benefit exists and it can help reduce the major problems we're facing right now it's worth it.

> Infection is a binary status. You are either infected or not.

The amount of virus matters in if you get infected or not. The more you do to reduce the amount of virus that is in the air the better. You are correct that you can't expect perfect protection from a mask while standing in a fog of virus, but that's rarely the scenario people experience. Masks have been shown again and again to he effective at helping prevent the spread of covid. I wouldn't feel comfortable sitting in a classroom with 40-60 other kids while there were thousands of new infections every day in my community, but if I were forced to, I'd make damn sure I had a mask on. What's the alternative?

Re: The case against masks at school

#594

Post by jimmyjazz14 »

TameAntelope wrote: post #233
sfotm wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really true, regardless of whether you like masks or not. There have been one or two level changes with respect to how much risk you're introducing to those around you as well as the personal accountability of those you'd affect. It's not surprising that different people have different tolerances for these risks. Even without the above factored in, this is sort of like saying that not using your turn signa…

It's not about individual risk, it's about collective risk, and honestly it's quite selfish to consider the COVID risks only with regard to yourself. And Omicron has made it so the risk profile is effectively the same as when this pandemic started; you will get it, you will be contagious for a time, and you will infect others. By looking at that risk and accepting it, you're throwing away the work you've previously p…

Its not March 2020 anymore we have vaccines and treatments the externalities have changed so should our behaviors.

Re: The case against masks at school

#595

Post by rrose »

fullstackchris wrote: post #486
dsl wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course all of our problems go away when you convince the remaining 40% of the population to get vaccinated. I'm actually in favor of doing away with masks and social distancing. Just create a nationwide policy that the unvaccinated will not be admitted or treated for COVID and we can all return to our daily lives.

I'd argue it in a more adult way than just punishing those who are different from you. Just do away with the masking and social distancing regardless. As soon as we were throwing out the first doses of expired vaccine, the choice by every american to get vaccinated or not had been made. If the hospitals are overrun, it will be the unvaccinated, so they'll be punished anyway - no need to legally do it. Also you need t…

hospitals being overrun doesn't just affect the unvaccinated, it affects anybody who needs medical attention. just allowing the hospitals to get overrun is not a reasonable option

Re: The case against masks at school

#596

Post by perardi »

colpabar wrote: post #461
perardi wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYTimes has a pretty good source on this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-... I'll tell you that here in Chicago, based off data, and anecdotes: really depends on the neighborhood. Vaccinated areas? Doing fine. Undervaccinated areas? Not doing so well. Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

No post body was provided.

Re: The case against masks at school

#597

Post by ajford »

another_story wrote: post #508

In Taiwan we've been wearing masks for over 2 years with near zero complaint at school. I have to remind a few kids a day to put it over their nose. We've had Omicron here for awhile, but it's still only a trickle of cases, with no exponential explosion. The policies here, with contact tracing, quarantine and masks, have kept things open and people from dying. I don't understand the hesitancy.

It's the incredible selfishness of some Americans (speaking as an American). Plenty of people who take their own personal comfort and opinions as higher priority over others.

Even from day one we've had people refusing to mask/sanitize/social distance, claiming it "violates their freedom".

Re: The case against masks at school

#598

Post by [deleted] »

taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

[deleted]

Re: The case against masks at school

#599

Post by WillPostForFood »

perardi wrote: post #384
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Yes, and? The hospital case load is overwhelmingly, screamingly, massively dominated by the elderly unvaccinated. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/... Given the extremely contagious nature of Omicron, what plausible way do we have to prevent these individuals from getting COVID and using hospital space? And don't say masking up kids—because if they haven't gotten vaccinated, then why do you…

The hospital case load is overwhelmingly, screamingly, massively dominated by the elderly unvaccinated.

Are you sure this is true? The data you linked to shows that hospitalization rate for 65+ unvaccinated is 7x 65+ vaccinated. But WA has a great vaccination rate, over 99% for 65+ with one or more shot. So even with 7x the rate, unvaccinated elderly probably aren't massively dominating hospitalizations because it is such a small pool of ppl.

vax rate: https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-st...

Re: The case against masks at school

#600

Post by michaelmrose »

sokoloff wrote: post #576
sleepybrett wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of things happening. This 'they don't 100% work so we shouldn't even bother' bullshit .. is just that. Bullshit. What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks. Now granted our schools are, frankly, criminally underfunded. However that PPE could be supplied from outside the school's budget for those students that don't take care of the costs themselves. The other problem that i've…

The cost of masked students is not just the purchase price of the masks. It’s that plus the reduction in learning (academic, linguistic, and social) from wearing the masks (and the masks being fussed over). That total cost may (or may not) still support the decision to have a mask mandate for kids, but let’s not get confused and think the only cost is measured in dollars.

Do we have any evidence of any kind that there is a reduction in learning?
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