Live data from Hacker News

The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

481–490 of 1001 posts

Re: The case against masks at school

#481
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children are safe from having debilitating symptoms due to COVID . I think it's worth being precise with language because the shorthand has been confusing for many people and used as a bludgeon in the reopening-schools-debate. But of course the real issue is children getting COVID from family, bringing it to school, spreading it to other kids who then give it to other parents. I have not seen analyses which attempt t…

Also spreading it to their teachers, who are usually adults and who usually don't want to get deadly diseases and may not be willing to work without some precautions going towards their safety.

The virus is endemic, we are all going to get it sooner or later.

Re: The case against masks at school

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad you can't know if you're sick or not until it's too late. It's one of the reasons this virus spreads so quickly. Even if you're not sick wearing masks also helps to protect you from getting sick. It's win/win for extremely minimal effort/inconvenience.

Too bad that condemning everyone as sick with zero evidence isn't how a free society works. Let's imprison everyone who "might" commit a crime. Masks have gigantic effort/inconvenience and mental health costs. I can't think of anything but counting down the seconds until ripping that f*cking thing off my face while being strangled by that shit. Yet nobody cares about anyone else's mental health over their own perceiv…

> condemning everyone as sick with zero evidence isn't how a free society works.

That is like saying that seatbelts and speed limits condemn you as a bad driver.

A free society protects everyone's rights. What people tend to forget is that every right has a price, in the form of an obligation. For example: You have the right to private property, and the price is that you must respect other's private property.

One of the things that is difficult to get about Covid is that you can simultaneously be infectious (able to transmit it to others) and asymptomatic (no headhache, no fever, not even sore throat). That is not something we are used to deal with, our other infectious illnesses aren't that stealthy. There are other things that are atypical about this virus (the kind of vaccine we used is new, the amount of infected is unusually high, it transmits via air...). Treating this illness with the knowledge and techniques that we have learned from other illnesses is simply not enough, there are too many differences.

The free society is protecting your rights. In particular, your right to not be infected by another person might have no other chance but to get into close contact with. The price of that right is that both of you wear a mask.

Even if the mask is terribly uncomfortable for you, you must endure it because other people also have rights. The same way that just because you are hot, you are not allowed to take off all your clothes in front of everyone.

> being strangled

You might just need a better mask.

My head is big compared to the heads in China. Most of the masks I have access to locally for cheap are made there. They tend to be quite uncomfortable for me.

I splurged ~60 bucks into buying several from different makers and found a model that works for me (Adidas Made For Sport, I wear it at the gym and do cardio with it. Comfortable and makes you look like Bane). When I'm going to use the public transport or visit a hospital I wear an FP2 mask with an ear protector. It is not comfortable, but at least my ears don't hurt a the end.

You could also try inventing a better mask.

Re: The case against masks at school

#483
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing masks whenever possible doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've been loving it that COVID has normalized wearing a mask in public because I'd like to do it all the time for the rest of my life without being judged for it. But I don't want anybody mandating it. I've been trying to work out in my own mind why I switched to being more, uh, 'deontologist' if you will, several years ago. I'm just starting to almo…

> Americans debating every day whether strongly authoritarian and invasive measures are OK, if they save lives. In Europe seatbelts are mandatory, and it is forbidden to smoke in most places. I think that these are reasonable measures. I think, for the exact same reasons, that mask mandates are reasonable. In public transport is mandatory to wear at least a t-shirt, as skin to skin contact gets unhealthy fast. And re…

In most of Europe masks for schoolchildren aren't mandatory.

https://www.newsweek.com/cdc-school-mask-guidelines-fuel-cul...

Re: The case against masks at school

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thesis of the article is that even though studies show masks work studies in schools had obvious flaws and are measuring multiple confounding factors ergo masks might not work so we have no justification for mask mandates. This is materially different from knowing they don't work. I cannot countenance the idea that keeping most of your spit with you rather than floating around the room doesn't reduce spread of a…

Yeah I don't think they are really saying that they absolutely don't work but that the evidence that they do is weak enough to justify removing the mandates. They address N95 mask in the article (did you read it) pointing out that they are more difficult to breath in and hinder communication more (I'll add my own point in that they are harder to keep a seal with which seems to be quite important according to the stud…

There are a couple of things happening.

This 'they don't 100% work so we shouldn't even bother' bullshit .. is just that. Bullshit.

What is the cost of masked students, it's the cost of the masks. Now granted our schools are, frankly, criminally underfunded. However that PPE could be supplied from outside the school's budget for those students that don't take care of the costs themselves.

The other problem that i've been hearing from my public school teacher friends is that there are so many staff absences due to covid that more and more students are stuffed into the classrooms of those teachers that are there. So if you, as a teacher, have a class that is down 50% of students due to an outbreak but somehow you managed to avoid it. Well your 50% empty class that allows for better distancing will not last, you will be at 100% or grater capacity simply because another teacher is out, there are no available substitutes and you can't leave kids unsupervised.

Re: The case against masks at school

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad you can't know if you're sick or not until it's too late. It's one of the reasons this virus spreads so quickly. Even if you're not sick wearing masks also helps to protect you from getting sick. It's win/win for extremely minimal effort/inconvenience.

Extremely minimal? Masks make it a lot harder to communicate effectively. People are harder to understand, emotions are harder to read, speaking takes more effort. If communicating is the main thing you do all day, because you're a teacher for instance, that is a significant inconvenience.

not to mention facial expressions transmit an incredible amount of non-verbal information that transcends language itself (which the article touches upon). not taking this, and all the other variables that we now have a better understanding of, into account is highly negligent.

Re: The case against masks at school

#486
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or…grandpa can get vaccinated. I'd be more than happy to test and vaccinate in schools. In particular vaccinate. But having kids wear masks…which they don't do well, because they're kids…not like adults do it well either…is a fig leaf. It's not going to work. And you can see that from the massive infection rates in schools that have masks .

Of course all of our problems go away when you convince the remaining 40% of the population to get vaccinated. I'm actually in favor of doing away with masks and social distancing. Just create a nationwide policy that the unvaccinated will not be admitted or treated for COVID and we can all return to our daily lives.

I'd argue it in a more adult way than just punishing those who are different from you. Just do away with the masking and social distancing regardless. As soon as we were throwing out the first doses of expired vaccine, the choice by every american to get vaccinated or not had been made. If the hospitals are overrun, it will be the unvaccinated, so they'll be punished anyway - no need to legally do it.

Also you need to update your Sam Harris stats, its not 40% unvaccinated anymore like some outlets continue to harp on, check CDC numbers, its closer to only 20% of the population remaining.

Re: The case against masks at school

#487
post #398

Hm... this does not actually make an argument against masks in school. It's perfectly fair to point out the limitations of the available studies. Of course we want better ones -- that's a good argument for more, better studies. But the lack of absolute proof isn't an argument against masks in school. That's dumb. Until we conduct some well-designed rigorous controlled experiments on human children (which we'll never…

> Masks aren't exactly burdensome. We make kids wear shirts and shoes, even when it's unnecessary in summer. Given the current situation, if you could magically set aside politics and the associated mouth-breathers (which of course we can't) wouldn't we actually demand proof that masks are a net negative before we stop mandating them? normally you're supposed to actually demand proof that something is a net positive…

> normally you're supposed to actually demand proof that something is a net positive before you start mandating it

Are you unaware of the massive amounts of clear-cut evidence that properly worn quality masks substantially reduce the transmission of covid? Come on.

Re: The case against masks at school

#488

There have been numerous studies showing that mechanically N95 and equivalent masks can greatly reduce the emission of coronavirus and influenza, and can also greatly reduce the intake of coronavirus-sized particles. That's why these types of articles always focus on mask mandate effectiveness instead of mask effectiveness. How many schools with mask mandates also have their lunch indoors with poor ventilation? Can y…

The kids are not allowed to interact at school. Their schools are closed arbitrarily. They are taught that they are a vector of disease. We make them eat outside on cold sidewalks in freezing temperatures. The risk to children is very low.

Meanwhile, adults are going to crowded restaurants, bars, concerts without masks in the same cities.

It is all a joke at the expense of our children.

When these kids are running our government and we are the retirees dependent upon them etc. then the bill will come due and we will deserve it.

Re: The case against masks at school

#489

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

> although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses Sorry if this is an insensitive, stupid question, but why do foggy glasses bother you if you're blind?

The majority of visually impaired people who are legally classified as "blind" still have some visual perception and glasses can help maximize that.

Re: The case against masks at school

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYTimes has a pretty good source on this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-... I'll tell you that here in Chicago, based off data, and anecdotes: really depends on the neighborhood. Vaccinated areas? Doing fine. Undervaccinated areas? Not doing so well. Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this.

> Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this. You know, I see snarky little comments like this becoming more and more common on this site, and I'd just like to point out that they are not helpful in any way. Who is it directed towards? Do you think you are convincing anyone , or encouraging a productive discussion? I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people on this website are va…

> Who is it directed towards?

I imagine toward the people who behave as if vaccines aren't effective, which are nonzero.

> In my opinion, that line is the equivalent of saying "gosh, maybe black people should just stop committing crimes if they don't want to go to jail" or "gosh, maybe gay people should just stop having unprotected sex if they don't want HIV."

I mean. The latter statement is a thing gay people actually DID say, long before the government told them to. Gay people noticed that it was spread through sex and that condoms work. Not even going to touch the former statement since I don't feel like wading into the criminalization of black people. Suffice to say, not convinced by either of these comparisons.

> I am begging you, and everyone else, PLEASE, if you want to make a point, please do it in a respectful way that doesn't assume anyone who disagrees is stupid. If you need to be snarky, go do it on the-site-that-must-not-be-named.

I'd label your preceding statement to be snarky, fwiw.

Post reply on HN