The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#471

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #381

concinds wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely asking - What's stopping a country, or hospital, from saying: "we'll prioritize cancer patients, scheduled surgeries, normal operation; you come in with Covid respiratory distress, and we're full? Go away." From the government data I've found, Covid patients are about 5-20% of emergency department patients in the US[0]; in Switzerland that leaves a healthy amount of free beds[1] (though I'm sure staffing is…

I've asked my friends working in medicine the same thing. What if hospitals were to start turning away those who are willingly unvaccinated? I haven't been able to get a clear answer but the basic theme I hear is you can't, state law prohibits that. Of course the law can be changed, but what legislature is going to do that? This is where politics enters the fray. They'd rather kick the can down the road and bring in…

For hospitals it's the federal EMTALA law which makes it illegal for hospitals to deny emergency care on the basis of vaccination status. If a patient shows up with unstable vital signs then the hospital is required to at least stabilize them. For COVID-19 patients that's usually based on respiratory distress or low blood oxygen saturation.

https://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMT...

Re: The case against masks at school

#472

Post by xdennis » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #275

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

> although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses

Sorry if this is an insensitive, stupid question, but why do foggy glasses bother you if you're blind?

Re: The case against masks at school

#473

Post by sleepybrett » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

dsl wrote: post #434

perardi wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or…grandpa can get vaccinated. I'd be more than happy to test and vaccinate in schools. In particular vaccinate. But having kids wear masks…which they don't do well, because they're kids…not like adults do it well either…is a fig leaf. It's not going to work. And you can see that from the massive infection rates in schools that have masks .

Of course all of our problems go away when you convince the remaining 40% of the population to get vaccinated. I'm actually in favor of doing away with masks and social distancing. Just create a nationwide policy that the unvaccinated will not be admitted or treated for COVID and we can all return to our daily lives.

Convincing that 40% to get vaccinated while members of our elected government preach to that particular choir about how things that are partially or mostly effective (masking, vaccines, etc) are NOT effective simply because they are not 100% effective is a losing battle.

Watch the widely circulated video of the Florida's nomination hearing for their new Surgeon General, where a democrat asks the nominee if he, yes or no, believes the vaccines to be effective. It was asked five times, his answers were nothing but stuttering, rambling, dissembling, meandering madness ('i mean what does effective actually mean' level bullshit). The republicans passed him out of committee once the democrats walked out in frustration.

We have a party that is in full denial mode because that's what their anti-vax constituents want to hear. The only upside might be that their vote share goes down because their constituents die in higher numbers.

Re: The case against masks at school

#474

Post by Zanneth » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:54 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #387

Zanneth wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the responsibility of public health to take all of these variables into account before mandating countermeasures. The fact that people are constantly placed in situations where mask effectiveness is reduced or in some cases completely eliminated should be evidence that mask mandates are pointless when applied at scale.

Very confusing how people seem to keep making the illogical jump from "individuals follow a mask mandate improperly / mask mandates are insufficiently specific to cover the actual means of transmission" to "mask mandates are pointless". Mask mandates done poorly are pointless. Obviously. But it is completely absurd to conclude that mask mandates writ large are pointless.

That was a poor choice of words on my part. Instead of "pointless" I should have said "impractical." I think most of us agree that we wouldn't want to live in a world where kids are forced to wear N95 masks all day, with tape binding them to their skin, with adults constantly supervising their proper fit, and with absolutely no lunch breaks or ability to drink fluids. If mask wearing done poorly is the only realistic option, then we would be better off without them altogether.

Re: The case against masks at school

#475

Post by pcmoney » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:56 PM UTC

Vaccines for Covid are available. Vaccines do not stop the spread of Covid. Vaccines do not stop you from getting Covid. Vaccines do reduce the probability of severe/fatal cases of covid.

Masks are available. Most masks in most situations do little to stop the spread of Covid. Well fitted N95s are more effective.

Getting vaccinated or wearing a mask is clearly a personal health decision. Vaccine mandates are ridiculous given the above. Mask mandates are ridiculous given the above. Mandates in general show little impact on actually changing behavior.

The risk to children is incredibly low. The coronavirus is endemic, we are all going to get it.

Lets move on already.

If you are fearful of coronavirus or at risk you can do what you think is necessary to stay safe. You don’t get to use your fear or neuroses to control others.

Re: The case against masks at school

#476

Post by ajford » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:57 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

criddell wrote: post #15

My kids attend a university in Canada and live in residence on campus. They have had incredibly strict rules around masking and gatherings. It's clear that they are only considering one variable - number of infections - and it seems like they aren't considering any other factors. For example, in the dorm there is a common area with a piano. Because of COVID, playing that piano is banned. Even if there was a reasonabl…

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

To me, this ignores the fact that a death of a loved/cared for individual is the most "minimum quality of life" you can get.

Sure, being able to go watch a family movie together used to be a big family thing, but we can't do that anymore. Our QOL has dropped in that regard, but it's far less impactful than saying to heck with it and going to the theater and having my kid or an in-law catch Covid and die. Long Covid even indicates there's a chance that surviving Covid leaves you with a long-term impact to QOL. Why take that risk over minor irritation in the near term?

Sure, masks are tedious and annoying. But to my youngest, so are shirts and shoes. If he had his choice, he'd run around all damn day in underwear or shorts. But society as a whole benefits from a general adherence to everyone wearing shirts and shoes in public. He's got the same feelings towards seatbelts. Just like masks, seatbelts are only a half-measure. They don't prevent you from dying in a car crash, but they give some modicum of benefit overall. There's a higher chance of surviving a crash with a seatbelt on, even if it's not guaranteed.

All of these "I'm done with masks/precautions" statements are made in a void while ignoring the ripple effect that stems from that.

There's a turning point where life will have to resume one way or another, but the longer we can go as a civilization with a reduced QOL the better the chances of resolving the pandemic with fewer deaths all around.

Re: The case against masks at school

#477

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:57 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #433

taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

> My daughter is in pre-med. Apparently people are dropping out like flies This may not be a bad thing in the long run. There’s a shortage of medical professionals because the medical industry wants it that way. If the crisis becomes acute enough, the government will be forced to loosen regulations, and that would allow for more people to enter the field faster and more easily.

The shortage of physicians is primarily caused not by regulations but by lack of government funding for residency programs.

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-fun...

Re: The case against masks at school

#478

Post by abduhl » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #425

lr1970 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. This statement might be true for your location but is not true in general. Here in New York City hospitalizations due to covid are not very high and going down quickly. Elective surgeries and procedures go on as scheduled. ICUs are not overrun with covid specific cases. Majority of the patients with positive PCR test are hospital…

NYTimes has a pretty good source on this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-... I'll tell you that here in Chicago, based off data, and anecdotes: really depends on the neighborhood. Vaccinated areas? Doing fine. Undervaccinated areas? Not doing so well. Gosh, it's like vaccines work and that's the way out of this.

What are the demographics of each of your identified cohorts? For example, if the south side is under vaccinated (whatever that means) and doing poorly then it seems a little disingenuous to act like their medical care wasn’t subpar prior to Covid.

Re: The case against masks at school

#479

Post by adamrezich » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #467

adamrezich wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the retraction is appreciated but, if you'll excuse me for saying so, the fact that you thought this at all shows that we're well into "brainwashing" territory with this mask nonsense. it should be beyond obvious to any neutral observer that putting a covering over one's nose and mouth will affect their breathing airflow, especially so when exercising. you don't even have to try it yourself to intuit this, it's just…

> the fact that you thought this at all shows that we're well into "brainwashing" territory with this mask nonsense. I don't agree with that. As noted, blood oxygen levels for most people are not changed by mask wearing (presumably, most of us just add the extra 20-30% effort to keep the airflow up and/or were nowhere near close to requiring the full breath). > once you have tried it, there should be zero doubt in yo…

when you put a thing over your nose and mouth, it negatively affects how well you can breathe. depending on the material and how much you're currently breathing (exerting yourself or not, healthy or not), it may be a little, it may be a lot. this is basic common sense intuition, and propaganda about the effectiveness and/or necessity of masks of any description should not preclude you from continuing to hold these basic observable truths in your mind.

> presumably, most of us just add the extra 20-30% effort to keep the airflow up and/or were nowhere near close to requiring the full breath

how can this be considered negligible under any circumstances? even if the observed difference in effort required seems negligible for you personally, why would it be the same for everyone? I can think of many, many reasons why 20–30% additional effort to breathe can be extremely impactful for many different people with different personal circumstances.

Re: The case against masks at school

#480

Post by jmull » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 9:59 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #422

jmull wrote: post #398

Hm... this does not actually make an argument against masks in school. It's perfectly fair to point out the limitations of the available studies. Of course we want better ones -- that's a good argument for more, better studies. But the lack of absolute proof isn't an argument against masks in school. That's dumb. Until we conduct some well-designed rigorous controlled experiments on human children (which we'll never…

> But the lack of absolute proof isn't an argument against masks in school. That's dumb. How so? It seems more ignorant to assume that masks would help more when the data we do have doesn’t show that. > Can children be swayed/educated/convinced to wear a quality mask often enough to make a difference in the transmission of covid among their teachers or their families? IDK. Good question. We aren't completely sure, bu…

Come on. The problem is the studies aren't conclusive, not that they show nothing.

Jesus.

Sorry, but yes, arguing that away is dumb. Not just dumb, but it gets people dead. So... good for you?

Look at the way the article hand-waves away the Bangladesh study... that only makes sense if children transmit covid in a substantially different way than adults. What's the justification for that? Our model for covid transmission is by droplets, particularly from the mouth, such as when exclaiming, shouting, etc. and that masks inhibit such transmission by catching the droplets. Without some evidence it's hard to conceive of how children would be less prone to this, making mask-wearing more important for them to reduce transmission.

> unfounded inferences

What's your argument? That children probably cannot be educated to do anything whatsoever? Hey, schools are pointless in their entirety, so we can cancel all that and the mask issue goes away naturally. Dumb.