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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#531

Post by double_nan »

flyingcircus3 wrote: post #213
double_nan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that there is such a beacon of truth you are looking for. May be that should be the resolution after all the dust settles.

Of course there isn't! That's why its so preposterous to single out "traditional" media as the sole purveyors of falsehoods. Meanwhile, this other segment of the media is essentially a broken clock of bottomless cynicism and grievance airing, which somehow bears no blame for the erosion of trust.

I guess there was too much trust in the MSM at one point and what we see now is a 2 fold problem: 1. A hangover after the blind trust period 2. A degradation of MSM became obvious and opened a way for smaller outlets and citizen journalists.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#532

Post by giantg2 »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

"Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking."

Not exactly. I think this is an example of how different perspectives lead to fear being used to drive a law, because it has been used by both sides. Those who agree with the law believe the threat (fear) is enough to justify the law, and forget that it was fear that drove it in the first place, or downplay the fear element.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#533

Post by vannevar »

raxxorrax wrote: post #506
vannevar wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that terrorism in the US is a miniscule threat in reality, killing a handful of people a year, whereas the virus is one of the top causes of death over the past two years. Not all fears are unjustified. Climate change already kills far more people annually than terrorism via floods, fires, and droughts. That being said, fear doesn't justify authoritarianism, even when the fear is reasonable.

The individual chance that you die from any of that does NOT warrant fear.

Similarly, the individual chance of getting cancer by smoking a cigarette doesn't warrant fear. But if you apply this logic to cigarette after cigarette, you may end up in a PSA talking through a hole in your throat and telling everyone not to smoke. Fortunately, as human beings, we can see patterns in large numbers and act on them. We aren't limited to looking at the world through the keyhole of individual risk. We can take a broader view.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#534

Post by giantg2 »

raxxorrax wrote: post #506
vannevar wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that terrorism in the US is a miniscule threat in reality, killing a handful of people a year, whereas the virus is one of the top causes of death over the past two years. Not all fears are unjustified. Climate change already kills far more people annually than terrorism via floods, fires, and droughts. That being said, fear doesn't justify authoritarianism, even when the fear is reasonable.

The individual chance that you die from any of that does NOT warrant fear.

Absolutely right. However, it doesn't stop politicial groups or media from using ominous music and dystopian or wasteland images to evoke fear in their audience.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#535

Post by giantg2 »

vannevar wrote: post #533
raxxorrax wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individual chance that you die from any of that does NOT warrant fear.

Similarly, the individual chance of getting cancer by smoking a cigarette doesn't warrant fear. But if you apply this logic to cigarette after cigarette, you may end up in a PSA talking through a hole in your throat and telling everyone not to smoke. Fortunately, as human beings, we can see patterns in large numbers and act on them. We aren't limited to looking at the world through the keyhole of individual risk. We…

I think your system is not an accurate representation. They are talking about an individuals risk of these events killing them. Your system is talking about the cumulative risk of individual cigarettes. This distinction needs to be made because the risk varies greatly by location and ones preparation (mitigating factors).

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#536

Post by giantg2 »

Kye wrote: post #510
nradov wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "all" do you also mean healthcare workers? Law enforcement? Farmers? Military? Utility workers? Garbage collectors? Homeless people? Even if you somehow locked all the humans in their homes for a month, someone would catch the virus again from a deer or something and the pandemic would start all over again.

The actual point seems to stand. Left, right, center. All have ill-advised proposals. Some are more willing than others to put their ideas on the table and take feedback (not blanket dismissals). There hasn't been anyone remotely leftist in power for most of a century, so it's plainly inaccurate for /u/givemeethekeys to say: >> "Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it." Biden is, at b…

"There hasn't been anyone remotely leftist in power for most of a century"

I think that highly depends on one's definition of "leftist".

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#537

Post by Kye »

giantg2 wrote: post #536
Kye wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual point seems to stand. Left, right, center. All have ill-advised proposals. Some are more willing than others to put their ideas on the table and take feedback (not blanket dismissals). There hasn't been anyone remotely leftist in power for most of a century, so it's plainly inaccurate for /u/givemeethekeys to say: >> "Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it." Biden is, at b…

"There hasn't been anyone remotely leftist in power for most of a century" I think that highly depends on one's definition of "leftist".

This is the unfortunate side-effect when social and political signifiers become snarl words. I haven't done a science on it, but it seems like most people who use "left" sans detail and don't consider themselves leftist bundle DNC, DSA, and all the other center-left factions into one and imagine them being led by whoever the current DNC leader or president is.

I double checked /u/givemeethekeys' post and it's hard to pin down a definition. They mostly seem to want to accuse Biden of being a Republican while also insinuating he's a leftist, so their whole analysis is deeply confused (or confusing as presented).

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#538

Post by Sykander »

loughnane wrote: post #458
epgui wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

I rank free speech very highly, certainly more than just a tool. My reasoning is this: 1. Some things are good in themselves, some for the sake of other things, some both. 2. Thus there must be an ultimate good that is good only in itself 3. “Happiness” seems to be to be that ultimate good. 4. “What is happiness” takes more than a sentence, but my money is that it’s closely related to things that are unique to humans…

> 1. Some things are good in themselves, some for the sake of other things, some both.

Some people may agree or disagree with this sentiment, that an action can be inherently right or wrong. Afterall, context makes all the difference.

> 3 “Happiness” seems to be to be that ultimate good.

Unfortunately, we know that this isn't the case. Even is an absolute morality exists (meaning that a thing could inherently right without relying on some other authority), we know that happiness is not it's ideal, because then Utilitarianism would be fundamentally right in all scenarios, and it just isn't.

Furthermore, if we characterise happiness as an absolute goal, then why not just hook your brain directly up to a Seratonin IV for the rest of your life?

=====

Free Speech is important because just having someone tell you something is true isn't enough. There needs to ALWAYS be an open forum for disagreement, of anything. Even if you think something is right, it shouldn't be free from criticism.

If an idea isn't strong enough to stand in a free speech debate then it isn't worth holding onto.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#539

Post by mschuster91 »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #428
mschuster91 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without fear, however, you don't get any kind of progress. Fear is powerful. Back in the 60s-80s, the world managed to use the fear of pox to eradicate the disease from existence - and most did so by instituting a vaccine mandate. Back in the late 70s/80s, the world managed to use the fear of acid rain to ban sulphur emissions (LRTAP convention). In the early 90s, the world managed to use the fear of ozone to ban CFC…

I agree with most of what you say. However, one thing I must point out is that climate change is a complex problem with no easy solutions. As much as it sounds like we should "just turn off the oil" that would in fact lead to millions of deaths. It's possible that there are problems that are unsolvable or at least a best outcome doesn't exist. Extinction maybe inevitable.

> However, one thing I must point out is that climate change is a complex problem with no easy solutions.

Indeed, but right now we are doing almost nothing meaningful. We shame people from taking vacation flights once every couple years but don't ban short distance "business flights" for corporate executives with a completely bonkers view on how important they are. We still don't mandate the end of "bunker fuel" burning on ships or the usage of land-line power of cruise ships. Instead of building electrified freight and passenger rail, large parts of the rail network run on decades old diesel engines, large parts of freight runs on trucks and in the US the word "high speed passenger rail" is as inconceivable as "fair minimum wage".

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#540

Post by puffoflogic »

ayngg wrote: post #286
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

I think it largely comes from a lack of empathy that has been cultivated for a while now through the loss of social cohesion. It seems like across the board (families, friends, local communities, spouses etc), people are suffering socially and turn to insular groups on social media to cope.

On the contrary, studies have shown that this comes from an excess of empathy. Studies have shown that when empathy is controlled chemically, increased empathy correlates positively to increased tribalism.
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