Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse • Hacker News Board

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#361

Post by dools » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:02 AM UTC

rapnie wrote: post #358

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Wondering to what extent the growing "left vs. right" divide is mostly artificially created as a distractionary strategy to keep attention away from the very real and growing divide of the Have's and Have-not's. And prolong the unfettered capitalism that nowadays is best-served with flawed democracies or even outright autocracy.

I think what you've hit on is that the real struggle, which is between labour and capital, has been replaced by a grab bag of issues that pitch themselves as being anti-authoritarian.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#362

Post by math_denial » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:04 AM UTC

Liquix wrote: post #45

Could increased censorship actually be making the misinformation problem worse? If we are allowed to discuss and compare the merits of various theories, the wheat of truth naturally separates from the chaff of nonsense. When everything outside of The Approved Narrative is censored, people inevitably stumble across "banned" ideas - but there's no one to argue the other side or point out the flaws, making it far too ea…

There's also the fascination with the forbidden. I've met many people that started smoking as teenagers because it made them "transgressive".

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#363

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248

dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

Without fear, however, you don't get any kind of progress. Fear is powerful.

Back in the 60s-80s, the world managed to use the fear of pox to eradicate the disease from existence - and most did so by instituting a vaccine mandate.

Back in the late 70s/80s, the world managed to use the fear of acid rain to ban sulphur emissions (LRTAP convention). In the early 90s, the world managed to use the fear of ozone to ban CFC gas usage.

Back in the Cold War, both major superpowers were too afraid of the other one to launch nuclear weapons to initiate direct warfare, and in the end the fear of global warfare led to comprehensive international agreements on reducing arms proliferation.

The difference is: back then, politicians did the right thing to do based on scientific evidence and indications of issues. These days?! Scientists and activists have warned for decades about the dangers of climate change and the urgency to do something... but until now, all we got is politicians waffling around instead of actually doing anything to combat the real problems we are going to face.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#364

Post by sharperguy » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

selwynii wrote: post #65

geekpowa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I search "Jan 6 Deaths" and very first hit is this NYT article. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol... The article contradicts your claim "reported and quietly fixed days later without ever really owning up to it". Firstly it is the first hit so hardly quiet. Secondly it outlines that initial reporting of Sicknick's death was simply reporting what capital police said, later revised by medical…

Corrections get a tiny single digit fraction of the views of the original. There is no button to make sure everyone who saw the original sees the correction, assuming one is made. All you need is a few other places making the same claim, sourced to NYT, and only the people that care enough will even click through to read the source. NYT isn't putting corrections on headline news for the same visibility as the nice fr…

There labels on all the major social media platforms now saying if something is considered misinformation.

Maybe there should be a "major parts of this story were retracted by the media outlet" or something to news articles like this.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#365

Post by rvz » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #19

gtsop wrote: post #5

Wait.. what? Society has a trust problem? Implying we should trust people in power (economic and state) that have repeatedly and shamelessly acted for their own benefit against the interest of the public while they control the media (tv and online) to censor and/or shaddow-ban criticism and alternate views? Yes, if that's what you mean. We have a trust problem because there are people in power who are not trustworthy…

I'm not even sure if there is such a thing as a honest and trustworthy politician.

Well then. They have always let everyone down. There is no point in relying on them for anything since they have a magnificent track record in disappointment.

No matter who is in power, it always ends in scandal and failure. It is completely unsurprising and as expected. If you are surprised, welcome to politics.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#366

Post by ekanes » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

bambax wrote: post #310

The reason Substack has "content guidelines" is because they want to make their own laws. If they only followed the law, they would only need to remind users what's illegal and what's not. And so they have to go to great lengths to explain those laws that they are making, and why they exist, and how they're enforced, etc. And of course they present them as necessary and reasonable, and "the only way". > We will conti…

Classically, the only way things like that are “hard forced” on a company that refuses to be canceled is visa/mc stop accepting them. This is a real case for crypto-currencies.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#367

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:08 AM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #352

ayngg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it largely comes from a lack of empathy that has been cultivated for a while now through the loss of social cohesion. It seems like across the board (families, friends, local communities, spouses etc), people are suffering socially and turn to insular groups on social media to cope.

Yeah, I think the only way out of this is empathy. You don't have to think both sides are morally or rationally the same to have empathy for both sides. The alternative is either mass slaughter or mass displacement, at the extremes. You can't eliminate your "enemy" without either murdering/displacing them or somehow coming to terms with them (ideally, being friends with them). MLK got this right, and he was able to s…

Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion?

Back in 1939 the world decided they had enough of my ancestors (I'm German) and put a stop to bigotry by using force. These days, such views can get you elected to US Presidency.

What a goddamn shame.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#368

Post by wizzwizz4 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:09 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #176

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much none of the Fediverse is for-profit. People have tried, before. Nobody uses the for-profit Fedi services, because they're just bad. (There are for-profit hosting providers like Masto.host, but I don't think they count.)

Right but how do you mandate the use of Fediverse (as opposed to tiktok/fb/insta/twitter/substack/etc.)?

Why would you want to mandate it? That would kill Fedi faster than anything. Make it an available option that stands the test of time, while other things come and go, and people will use it eventually. (The Fediverse is already over a decade and a half old; almost as old as Facebook.)

Although, there are some proposals in the EU to make it mandatory for social media companies to use open communication protocols like ActivityPub (an exaggeration of their existing obligations under GDPR, which most of them are ignoring already)...

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#369

Post by ekanes » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:09 AM UTC

ComradePhil wrote: post #319

Gareth321 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard about "Proud Boys" a couple of years ago and went looking for more information to find out about their group so I could have an informed position on the subject. Google removed their website. I understand Google feeling compelled to remove extreme and illegal content, but this is not that. Google removed them for political and/or moral reasons. DuckDuckGo let me find the website and form my own opinions. Imag…

I don't see how you can blame the company when they are controlled by people who threaten them in various ways; threatening them with regulation with public disinformation about them using mass media being one of them. I have no doubt some of the top level people there are also involved in some Epsteinisque plot so that these people can have more control over them. They're more than big enough to warrant such a thing…

Not holding them accountable simply because “but they have reasons” means no-one is ever accountable for anything.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#370

Post by bigger_inside » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:11 AM UTC

native_samples wrote: post #356

jimkleiber wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was noticing that pattern as well, many people seem to be hurling the same insult but from opposite sides. In a way, it worries me, because the words lose their theoretical meaning and stand more for the assumed malevolence of the other side. If I could wish one thing on the world at this moment it would be for us to realize that most of the people who we believe are attacking us don't actually believe that they ar…

This happens because there's a lot of cultural bias towards being centrist, being perceived as the reasonable middle. People like that a lot, it feels good, so whenever such people try to describe political disputes it's tempting to try and describe both parties as the same when arguably they're not. This Substack article is a good case in point. It makes it sound like there's two sides, both demanding censorship, an…

This seems to be the public perception: only one side demands censorship. This isn't quite true and only shows you how well one side is at publicizing that they're being censored, which, ironically, means they're censored -less-.

Palestinian accounts on facebook have been deleted for years when they were trying to report on occupation. Facebook also deleted all the accounts of Nicaraguan socialists trying to counter the Western narratives about their election. Anything on social media that is anti-imperialist, especially when it comes from the actual global south, has been silenced, and also silently silenced - because it' not part of the mainstream discourse, so people often don't realize it's gone because they never knew it was there to begin with. It was easy to quietly sweep under the rug.

The new right isn't so easy to quietly sweep under the rug, because it's loud and it's next door to many people in the West, so you notice when the posts are gone, people yell about it and call wolf - which means they have the voice to yell, and the power to cry wolf.

It's an old (very, very old) insight that rules for censorship are made with the the excesses of the right as legitimation for it, and then used against the left. Which is why, on the left, it would be pragmatically and strategically smart to stop clamoring for the censorship of the right. We're just handing the agents of control the tools to silence us with.