The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out • Hacker News Board

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#311

Post by panarky » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 7:29 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

> get serious about the work of political persuasion

The thing about populist authoritarian movements is that they're popular. They're supported by a large segment of the population, and that segment is full of passionate intensity while the rest of us lack all conviction [0].

I can't think of a large populist authoritarian movement in the last hundred years that was defeated by mere "political persuasion".

[0] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-comi...

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#312

Post by jsnell » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 8:30 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #307

jsnell wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccination certificate in the EU has a QR code that can be cryptographically verified to have been issued by a legit authority, tells why the certificate has been issued (e.g. vaccination, negative test, etc), and embeds the name of the person such that their identity can be cross-checked against some form of official ID. So there's no need for anything more complex than a piece of paper you can download + print…

You still need the enforcement regime. Restaurants/bars/etc must have someone at the door scanning everyone's QR code (and cross checking it against a photo ID). Law enforcement must run stings against restaurants to ensure they're checking properly. It's gross.

Restaurants can have the ID check done by the waiter when taking the order. There is very little overhead, certainly no need to employ an extra person to check papers at the door. I doubt any law enforcement is running random stings. They would probably wait for members of the public to report this first.

I don't think checking IDs is gross, and obviously if you do, there is nothing I could say to change your mind. But it doesn't change the fact that Covid passports are easily implementable with paper, there is no need for the to be "holographic picture ID".

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#313

Post by chopin » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:00 AM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #312

stickfigure wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still need the enforcement regime. Restaurants/bars/etc must have someone at the door scanning everyone's QR code (and cross checking it against a photo ID). Law enforcement must run stings against restaurants to ensure they're checking properly. It's gross.

Restaurants can have the ID check done by the waiter when taking the order. There is very little overhead, certainly no need to employ an extra person to check papers at the door. I doubt any law enforcement is running random stings. They would probably wait for members of the public to report this first. I don't think checking IDs is gross, and obviously if you do, there is nothing I could say to change your mind. B…

I certainly wouldn't want to go to a restaurant which checks my ID.

We're heading to a state of affairs where you can't move in public anonymously. This is a dystopian nightmare.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#314

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 11:28 AM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #47

tazjin wrote: post #5

I think it's imperative that governments all over the world take steps to reduce dependence on American infrastructure. Russia is working on this, but it's a slow process - especially on the hardware side of things. If the US goes (more) rogue at some point, Europe will be left holding the bag. The sphere around Russia and China will make it, but what does Europe have?

> Europe will be left holding the bag If your hopes for an anti-authoritarian future rest in Europe, you're in for a major disappointment. As had as it's gotten here in America, we're still doing better than the rest of the world - at least for now.

[deleted]

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#315

Post by avgcorrection » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

azangru wrote: post #300

avgcorrection wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God, all these ellipsis and references to vague fears is tiring. The pandemic didn’t turn out to be a bogeyman that had no impact. Oh shucks—just a common cold after. But I guess that’s too “blue pill” of me to say.

However much of a bogeyman the pandemic turned out to be, the concern is that the state, proverbially, doesn't let a good crisis go to waste. Such was the case after 9/11; and there are signs that such is also the case now.

I agree that the aftermath of 9/11 wasn’t handled properly. You can’t react to a terror attack by becoming more afraid of terrorism—that just means that the terror attack was a success.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#316

Post by toss1 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #270

toss1 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I wrote, it is not required YET . >>~First a convenience, then a requirement. It is starting at this stage as a convenient option [0][1]. The stage to be concerned about is when it becomes ubiquitious, then default, then mandatory. Might not be soon, but it is a large round rock rolling downhill. Might be stoppable, but that's usually the default progression. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_lic…

Your language said "they require [that you run] apps" -- in the present, not future tense.

Okay, but that was speaking in the abstract context, and you're right, I was assuming the future tense and not unambiguously forcing it there in that line.

That said, another part of it was clearly in the future tense. >>At that point, we'll need two devices.

So, thanks for the alert, I'll try to be more clear next time.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#317

Post by toss1 » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

throwusawayus wrote: post #296

toss1 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he is their agent. Remember Russia has been the undisputed world champion of dezinformatsiya for centuries - they did a good job of making him appear as the "disgruntled principled whistleblower" they wanted. But most of the stuff he stole had little to do with the NSA activities they publicized, and much to do with key intelligence damage to the USA, including likely loss of lives. That's not protest, it's t…

I came to the same conclusion. At my job I learned that one of the important disclosures in his leaked documents wasn't true, it simply did not exist and there was no possible way for it to exist, pretty conclusively*. While this doesn't prove he was a foreign agent, it is certainly very suspicious. I'm not willing to say more, and I don't expect my comment will convince anyone here. But I assume there are a fair num…

Yup, IOW, the leaks were not only not relevant to his stated cause, but they were also salted with dezinformatsiya.

With the number of supposed information technology professionals on here, it is really discouraging to see how often unthinking hero worship shows up here - I'm hoping it's just a few vocal ones, but it certainly isn't counterbalanced by many who actually examine the information space. It's sort of key data about the world.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#318

Post by coliveira » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

foxfluff wrote: post #161

coliveira wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you said also works if you exchange America and Russia.

Do Canadians and Mexicans feel like the US is terrorizing them?

The US terrorizes several countries like Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Venezuela and others in the past. Canadians and Mexicans happen to be allied, in order to avoid this fate.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#319

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #312

stickfigure wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still need the enforcement regime. Restaurants/bars/etc must have someone at the door scanning everyone's QR code (and cross checking it against a photo ID). Law enforcement must run stings against restaurants to ensure they're checking properly. It's gross.

Restaurants can have the ID check done by the waiter when taking the order. There is very little overhead, certainly no need to employ an extra person to check papers at the door. I doubt any law enforcement is running random stings. They would probably wait for members of the public to report this first. I don't think checking IDs is gross, and obviously if you do, there is nothing I could say to change your mind. B…

You seem to have latched on to the least important part of what I've said. Yes, a centralized database combined with always-on internet access can suffice instead of holographic cards (in the same way that nowadays, police officers don't really need to look at your drivers license - they can just look you up from their car), but that's strictly worse from a privacy/dystopia perspective. And it does not work at all for offline dining.

Holographic cards would actually be better since it doesn't notify a central authority where and when everyone dines. You seem to be comfortable with the idea that "party of 6" sits down, and the waiter spends the next 5 minutes screwing with his phone scanning everyone's (printed?) QR codes and verifying faces. I would rather get covid.

Here in the US, ABC boards do in fact run stings on bars and restaurants to make sure they are checking ids. And yes history has shown that it is absolutely necessary if you want compliance.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#320

Post by vanusa » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 8:16 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #316

vanusa wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your language said "they require [that you run] apps" -- in the present, not future tense.

Okay, but that was speaking in the abstract context, and you're right, I was assuming the future tense and not unambiguously forcing it there in that line. That said, another part of it was clearly in the future tense. >>At that point, we'll need two devices. So, thanks for the alert, I'll try to be more clear next time.

All good, thanks for clarifying.

My main concern was the assertions made in the comment I initially responded to, several layers up. Whose author seems to have ghosted us, since making them.