Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse • Hacker News Board

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#421

Post by throwawaylinux » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:27 PM UTC

JoshuaDavid wrote: post #275

throwawaylinux wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is gaining power the most efficient way for a trustworthy and ethically constrained person to improve society? I don't know, I doubt anybody really knows. I suspect it would highly depend on the individual and the circumstance they find themselves in. Either way people do things that are not "the most efficient" all the time in all areas of their lives. > Keep in mind that if you answer that question "yes", you nee…

> I don't answer yes. I think a lot of charity work has pretty dismal results in improving society at a large scale to be honest, but that's another story. In any case it's quite possible to do both. Most political offices come with a salary. I find it unlikely that attempting to optimize somewhat for both effective charitable contributions and climbing the political ladder is likely to result in better outcomes than…

I really don't know what you're trying to say or how it addresses what I wrote. It's not some big gotcha that, in your opinion, society could more efficiently be improved one way and not the other.

A trustworthy person might want to run for political office because they want to improve society with the power of that ofice. This is not up for debate. Certainly not by asking weird rhetorical questions. If you really want to argue the point then cough up a complete and coherent argument.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#422

Post by bopbeepboop » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:32 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #367

Robotbeat wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think the only way out of this is empathy. You don't have to think both sides are morally or rationally the same to have empathy for both sides. The alternative is either mass slaughter or mass displacement, at the extremes. You can't eliminate your "enemy" without either murdering/displacing them or somehow coming to terms with them (ideally, being friends with them). MLK got this right, and he was able to s…

Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion? Back in 1939 the world decided they had enough of my ancestors (I'm German) and put a stop to bigotry by using force. These days, such views can get you elected to US Presidency. What a goddamn shame.

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#423

Post by dukeyukey » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:33 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #367

Robotbeat wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think the only way out of this is empathy. You don't have to think both sides are morally or rationally the same to have empathy for both sides. The alternative is either mass slaughter or mass displacement, at the extremes. You can't eliminate your "enemy" without either murdering/displacing them or somehow coming to terms with them (ideally, being friends with them). MLK got this right, and he was able to s…

Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion? Back in 1939 the world decided they had enough of my ancestors (I'm German) and put a stop to bigotry by using force. These days, such views can get you elected to US Presidency. What a goddamn shame.

> Why should one have empathy with people who deny other peoples' basic human rights simply because of their gender, sexual orientation or religion?

Because it's easier to stop them believing that, if you understand why they're doing that in the first place. And understanding why they might believe that, is empathy.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#424

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:34 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #298

epgui wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

Free speech by our definition in the US is a sacred and mostly irreducible "holy" thing, as being the very first amendment of the constitution. There is no true democracy without free speech. Free speech is a fundamental atom of a healthy and fair democracy. There is almost never a case where restriction of speech isn't abused to give one individual or group political advantage over another.

There are numerous legal restrictions on speech, including against false advertising and slander. Further, free speech has not been considered "holy" in private spaces for the history of the US. This modern discussion of social media and moderation is completely novel and cannot draw from past feelings on free speech as a principle.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#425

Post by hutzlibu » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:34 PM UTC

dools wrote: post #283

jimkleiber wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was noticing that pattern as well, many people seem to be hurling the same insult but from opposite sides. In a way, it worries me, because the words lose their theoretical meaning and stand more for the assumed malevolence of the other side. If I could wish one thing on the world at this moment it would be for us to realize that most of the people who we believe are attacking us don't actually believe that they ar…

Yep. I had this conversation with my daughter the other day. She was like "But ... they just think the same thing about what you're saying". I was like "Totally, the only difference is that I'm right, and they're wrong". She was like "how do you know?". That lead to a much longer session of reviewing types of biases and fallacies, the scientific method and various other critical thinking tools I've developed over the…

"but whoever is on the "other side" is having the same conversation with their kids, and showing them tools and resources they've developed over the years to decide what information to trust and, to the kid, it's just as convincing!!"

I wish. And sometimes they do.

But there are lots and lots of people who have various religious/ideological dogmas. They do not show their kid the scientific method - they preach their truth to them. Because they feel they are right.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#426

Post by dools » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:35 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #411

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realise this was a /rant, but it's still spectacularly misinformed and unhelpful. If your hot take on politics is that climate change, COVID and the war on terror are all the same thing and this proves the left and right are both the same, then you're part of the problem. This reads more like a smart person trying to rationalize their cognitive dissonance, when they know deep down they've found themselves on obviou…

Neither the left or the right is arguing that climate change or COVID does not exist. The loud disagreements is about what strategy to deploy. We have nations like Germany that want to use natural gas to combat climate change, and we got France that want to use nuclear. The left leans towards natural gas, the right towards nuclear, both arguing that their strategy will lead towards an end to climate change and that t…

“ Neither the left or the right is arguing that climate change or COVID does not exist”

What!?

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#427

Post by headsoup » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:35 PM UTC

The article makes it like we should be trusting these institutions and that we don't because something not current has created the distrust.

Amazingly the authors essentially trust the consistent and consensus message coming from these platforms they say have ruined our trust. There must be some good cognitive dissonance backing that up.

Censorship is not required to defend honesty.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#428

Post by TrispusAttucks » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:38 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #363

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

Without fear, however, you don't get any kind of progress. Fear is powerful. Back in the 60s-80s, the world managed to use the fear of pox to eradicate the disease from existence - and most did so by instituting a vaccine mandate. Back in the late 70s/80s, the world managed to use the fear of acid rain to ban sulphur emissions (LRTAP convention). In the early 90s, the world managed to use the fear of ozone to ban CFC…

I agree with most of what you say. However, one thing I must point out is that climate change is a complex problem with no easy solutions.

As much as it sounds like we should "just turn off the oil" that would in fact lead to millions of deaths.

It's possible that there are problems that are unsolvable or at least a best outcome doesn't exist. Extinction maybe inevitable.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#429

Post by headsoup » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:38 PM UTC

jimkleiber wrote: post #259

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

I think fear can do a lot of things, as you say, the loss of freedom. I also think the lack of fear can lead to the loss of freedom. Fear can help us temper our actions so we don't do things that end up hurting us severely or even killing us. That being said, I would agree that repressed fear can do us quite a bit of harm and I think it often happens because we'll say fear is bad, without just appreciating how it hur…

Only if the lack of fear is because an authority figure has managed it all for you. This creates the bigger problem of a lack of self-regulation and automatic trust in authority.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#430

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 12:39 PM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #170

adolph wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why limit it to citizens?

Consider speech that is legal but likely to offend most Americans. For example, a picture gallery of American soldiers killed in Iraq, where each picture is captioned "Death to Crusaders, death to America!" If the 1a.gov platform is limited to citizens, it limits the number of accounts that can use that platform for agitating against Americans. If the platform is open to anyone in the world, it's going to end up as t…

"Only citizens can post here" is among the most censoring systems out there today. How many legal non-citizen residents are in the US? "Oh these millions of people cannot speak" is a hilarious statement coming from a "free speech platform."