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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#971

Post by mneubrand »

wutbrodo wrote: post #938
lwkl wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you are replying to is talking about hospitalizations for severe ilness. The study you are quoting is talking about covid infections in general. These two are not the same and the vaccine protects from the former (severe illness and death).

No, he's also talking about severe illness and death. He's saying that prior infection is a good substitute for the vaccine in preventing severe illness and death. The corollary being that we should consider "vaxed or prior infection" and "immunologically naive" as the two relevant groups (for mandates etc), not "vaxed" and "unvaxed".

Prior infection is a good substitute for the vaccine because the ones that die from that "prior infection" aren't going to be in the statistic that shows how effective a prior infection is compared to a vaccine for a subsequent covid infections

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#972

Post by eloff »

umvi wrote: post #761
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

Around half of my immediate family members had pretty bad reactions to the booster (fever/chills, aches for several days). And all of them got omicron anyway and had the same symptoms as family members who hadn't gotten the booster. I'm debating getting the booster but part of me thinks "why punish myself with high probability of fever/chills if in all likelihood I'm just going to get omicron anyway and suffer the sa…

The data so far suggests that the booster grants substantial protection against severe disease with omicron. If anecdotally there doesn't appear much difference in your circle, that's much weaker evidence. I would still recommend it. Also my parents got the booster with no side effects of note, so not everybody reacts that way.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#973

Post by eloff »

reedjosh wrote: post #720
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

> partly because it's easier for the government to just tell everyone to get vaccinated. Do you make no allocation in your mind for the potential that the government is corrupted and the motivations have nothing really to do with public health?

We're not talking about the government here, we're probably talking about over a hundred governments worldwide. They're all corrupt in the same way? That's ridiculous.

Also what's the end game here. Why would a corrupt government gain by mandating masks and encouraging vaccination. Even the potential motive is lacking.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#974

Post by eloff »

edmundsauto wrote: post #714
mlac wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been side effects from the vaccine, including documented cases of really bad reactions [1],[2]. I’m double vaxxed, boosted, and got covid. But to say the shot is without risks is disingenuous. That said, the risk of dying unvaccinated from COVID is much greater than the risks of vaccine. And it’s unclear if side effects from the shot are correlated to worse outcomes from COVID (e.g. It’s unknown if these p…

The relevant risk for your situation is vaccine risk, versus risk of reinfection (not just hospitalization, but also long term effects). The math may still work out for your preferred choice, but i wanted to point out that it’s fallacious to dismiss the (rare) risks from reinfection, especially when focusing on the (rare) risks from the vaccine. You may have said this and I just missed it, but both those risks are sm…

I don't think you'll get any more functional immunity from an extra shot of vaccine compared to two and an infection. So the benefit side of the calculation is lacking.

While the vaccine risks are very small, they're also highest for those who have had the actual infection. There will be little bits of virus lingering in my body for a long time. If I get that vaccine, my immune system is going to go ape attacking them, and maybe do some collateral damage in the process.

To be clear, I still think the risk is small, but so is is the benefit. I don't think it's worth it.

Thanks for writing a detailed comment of your thinking, I think we both are evaluating it the same way, I just wasn't very clear with my initial wording.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#975

Post by eloff »

jjeaff wrote: post #946
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

It's not true that no distinction is made for natural immunity. The CDC guidelines consider natural immunity from confirmed covid cases as valid for 90 days. That may not match the science, but policy has to trail the science as well as balance the science with public policy strategy.

90 days is just silly. Also anywhere there's a vaccine mandate, except in parts of Europe, that doesn't count for anything - when a confirmed recovery should be equal to vaccinated status.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#976

Post by 20after4 »

tunesmith wrote: post #883
nu11ptr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

Some unvaccinated are immunocompromised. I know someone who could not get vaccinated for medical reasons (legitimately), and caught it, and died. It just really sucks to know that the person I know would more likely be alive if not for the choices of others.

Vaccination does not prevent one from being contagious. On the contrary, vaccination could lead to more risky behavior.

Which of these two people are more likely to spread COVID:

1. An unvaccinated person who rarely leaves their house and avoids contact with people as much as possible.

2. A vaccinated individual with an asymptomatic infection who regularly engages in social activity, confident that their triple-boosted immunity will protect them from serious illness.

So yes, the choices of others have an impact, but I don't think it's clear that getting a vaccine is the thing that universally improves the outcome for others. It's individual behaviors more than vaccination status that impact the health of others. The choice to get vaccinated (or not) has little impact on one's chance of shedding the virus. But the change in behavior thanks to vaccine-induced confidence leading to more risky behavior could actually have a negative impact on the health of others.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#977

Post by samuelstancl »

eloff wrote: post #972
umvi wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around half of my immediate family members had pretty bad reactions to the booster (fever/chills, aches for several days). And all of them got omicron anyway and had the same symptoms as family members who hadn't gotten the booster. I'm debating getting the booster but part of me thinks "why punish myself with high probability of fever/chills if in all likelihood I'm just going to get omicron anyway and suffer the sa…

The data so far suggests that the booster grants substantial protection against severe disease with omicron. If anecdotally there doesn't appear much difference in your circle, that's much weaker evidence. I would still recommend it. Also my parents got the booster with no side effects of note, so not everybody reacts that way.

> If anecdotally there doesn't appear much difference in your circle, that's much weaker evidence

You can't compare studies looking at the population average with someone's specific social circle. Young people have a near-zero chance of getting severe disease anyway.

"substantial protection against severe disease with omicron" is irrelevant when the chance of severe disease is so low.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#978

Post by eloff »

orang2tang wrote: post #650
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

>I'm very angry at the dumbasses who haven't been infected and refuse to get vaccinated, including family of mine who died because of that. You use your dead relative as proof for your case in the same breath as calling them a dumbass. This goes to prove a point. Does it matter if everyone is vaccinated & "safe", at the expense of our dignity and respect as a species?

Getting vaccinated doesn't hurt our "dignity as a species". It's the smart and socially responsible thing to do, so it would make one more worthy of respect.

I know name calling is pretty low, but I stand by it. The data is so good right now, there are so many people who have been vaccinated, so many who've had covid with and without being vaccinated, that yes, you're a dumbass if you think it's smart not to get the vaccine. You've listened to the wrong information and built a bad argument in your mind.

My family member who died was a lovely person, but always bad at critical thinking and always fell for conspiracy theories. Mostly it was harmless. Sometimes it just cost him a lot of money. This time it cost him his life.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#979

Post by throw__away7391 »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #907
throw__away7391 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when the US invaded Iraq to "find weapons of mass destruction"? Then a year or two later that shifted to "fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here", then "winning hearts and minds" or something. Once you get a mandate for a large-scale, politically charged activity it will never stop; the goal posts will be moved again and again, as many times as it takes and as often as necessary to…

> This is no longer about fighting a disease, if it ever was, this is about securing access to resources and power for one group over another. yeah it's all a big conspiracy to put the bars and restaurants out of business for sinister reasons that are beyond imagination.

Don't be daft. This is exactly the kind of parroted narrative I'm talking about.

It's obvious to any objective observer how this has played out. Initially, three weeks of shutdown, combined with a stimulus program, was going to be painful but bearable. We laid off a bunch of people, cancelled raises, and prepared for a recession. When the "elite" saw how well their stocks, companies, and real estate holdings were doing, well suddenly this didn't seem so bad--for some folks like me and probably you as well. Then, very quickly, it got politicized and ritualized.

I can absolutely guarantee you if home values had cratered, if large businesses were getting their lunch eaten by small businesses, if stocks were on a two year decline and continued to fall, if WFH was only possible for low wage hourly workers, things would look very different and these restrictions would have been lifted a long time ago.

Now wearing a mask for 20 seconds while I walk 2 or 3 meters from the door of a restaurant to the table, only to immediately take it off for an hour to eat dinner isn't a practical mater, its symbolic--the mask is the new flag pin. The staff still needs to wear masks for their whole shift of course--all these COVID measures are falling disproportionately on service workers, I am going through life mostly free from any inconvenience while all the hourly worker I interact with wear masks, "sanitize" any surface I come into contact with, and perform all sorts of extra, mostly meaningless precautions to "keep me safe". I've never worked a job like this, but I can't imagine spending 8 hours sweating in a kitchen with a mask on is much fun.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#980

Post by bobbyasdfasdf7 »

ipaddr wrote: post #728
bobbyasdfasdf7 wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Just do what you are told. Follow your leaders. Everyone else is doing it...

The vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective over and over. At some point you just aren't listening.
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