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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#801

Post by dekhn »

muaytimbo wrote: post #753
dekhn wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to make sure I understand your underlying position before proceeding. I think what you're trying to say is that you believe there is an adequate enough case for people who had prior infection to avoid what they believe is an unnecessary medical procedure which may have some risk. And, scientifically, you believe it's absolutely certain that in this specific situation, prior infection immunity provides very g…

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the vaccines are less efficacious than initially reported (~94% decrease in the probability of disease incidence). I just don't understand how you square that with your conclusion, just keep getting boosted some indeterminate number of times by vaccines we know are 1) not as good as advertised, and 2) seem to be providing less and less protection over time as new var…

I give that recommendation for the same reason I floss my teeth when asking my children do so; it's modelling good behavior to establish life-long health habits. It's not that I think flossing is particularly effective at countering gum disease (compared to just brushing alone), but it's the mainstream position and I think it's better to model "follow mainstream science" than "repeatedly question the medical establishment without data". I watch the news and literature for occasional reviews of flossing and I would update my parenting if warranted.

The clear public health trend seems to be that we're going to see 2-3 revs of the vaccine booster per year, not that we're going to depend on natural immunity. I think it is almost certain that most COVID deaths were front-loaded and this will look almost exactly like flu vaccines in 3 years.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#802

Post by henrikschroder »

nu11ptr wrote: post #571
tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

Yes, this is a prime example of bad data being worse than no data.

In the UK, for months now, the rate of infection has been higher among the vaccinated cohort than among the unvaccinated cohort, for most age groups. [1]

The antivaxxers are of course pointing to this data and claiming it's evidence that the vaccines make you more likely to get infected, and therefore the tinfoil hats were right all along.

But what's actually happening is that the unvaccinated cohort contains a lot of people with natural immunity, who are dragging the numbers down, while the vaccinated cohort doesn't have as many people in it who have had a prior infection.

I strongly suspect that if you were you properly separate people by vaccination status and prior infection, you would see that the group of unvaccinated+no prior have a much higher case ratio than any other group. But since we don't have this good data, the antivaxxers are running hog wild with the bad data, drawing the wrong conclusions.

[1] https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/t.coddington/viz/UKRe...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#803

Post by throw_nbvc1234 »

AshleyGrant wrote: post #758
autokad wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my first 2 shots were fine, but my booster f'ed me up. I was in lots of body pain for 36 hours. 5 weeks later I caught omicron. I imagine by some point this year Ill be considered not fully vaccinated, but right now my desire to get another booster is very small. right now we know that even the booster provides little ability to stop you from getting omicron. likely by the next mandated booster the variant of the tim…

> right now we know that even the booster provides little ability to stop you from getting omicron This is true, but the data is showing that being boosted means that catching Omicron when boosted means you are much, much more likely to have a very minor illness. Refusing future boosters comes at the risk of your own health, as well as the health of the people around you.

> Refusing future boosters comes at the risk of your own health, as well as the health of the people around you.

And some scientists think that repeated boosters will backfire and lead to waning immunity or at least immunity better centered around the exact strain the vaccine is made (so could be mitigated by different boosters). Plus downsides of repeatedly have to make time to get boosters, taking doses from people who haven't even had the opportunity to get a single dose. Differences in risk between a healthy under 30 and an unhealthy over 65.

It's possible that your statement is correct for some demographics and incorrect for others. But that nuance is not in the current discussion or the current mandates; and that nuance could save lives in less-developed countries.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#804

Post by xdennis »

rory wrote: post #336
mbg721 wrote: post #174

Why is the opinion of a Pfizer board member relevant to legal policy? In other news, McDonald's board members are quite fond of wafer-thin beef patties.

He's a former FDA commissioner, so his opinion is arguably relevant. I'm not sure why they called him "Pfizer board member." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Gottlieb

Is it because he's a board member?

I remember a time when people thought it worrying when regulators moved to highly paid positions of the companies they were in charge of regulating.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#805

Post by SCHiM »

reedjosh wrote: post #720
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

> partly because it's easier for the government to just tell everyone to get vaccinated. Do you make no allocation in your mind for the potential that the government is corrupted and the motivations have nothing really to do with public health?

Sorry, but in my opinion that is a silly thing to believe. I'm assuming you're from a liberal democracy, what if I told you you could have _your_ name on the (local) ballot next time a $LOCAL vote comes around?

The government, for the most part, is not an evil cabal of deep state cultists (in most countries that describe themselves as liberal today). People like you or me can join a party, and then get elected within a year or two.

What I absolutely do believe is that people elected, through what is essentially a harmless popularity contest in peace time, are the worst type of people you want to have taking decisions in a crisis. People worried about their next re-election are _not_ going to make the right decisions, apart from the fact that in peace time the electorate optimizes for populism and extremism, and the candidates are sometimes more like actors than leaders. In short: they are incompetent, heavy handed and not even remotely equipped to deal withe massive leverage attached to the levers they control.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#806

Post by PickledHotdog »

reedjosh wrote: post #720
eloff wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also noticed this. I have covid right now. I'm double vaccinated. I was planning to get my booster shot, but now that I've had covid what's the point. It's not likely to increase my immunity and it comes with risks. At some point the government will probably change the definition of fully vaccinated to three shots and then I'll be in that unvaccinated group I usually make fun of. Somebody I know lost their job b…

> partly because it's easier for the government to just tell everyone to get vaccinated. Do you make no allocation in your mind for the potential that the government is corrupted and the motivations have nothing really to do with public health?

So every government, the world over, even those at war with each other, all decided to push a "get vaccinated" message for reasons other than health?

I mean, governments want to ensure their income stream (tax payers) are alive to pay taxes, but that's hardly "corrupt" and is still to do, indirectly, with public health

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#807

Post by bonzini »

MatteoFrigo wrote: post #737
bonzini wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing the effect on individual people with the effect on the whole community. I do not debate the effect of natural immunity on individuals who have had COVID in the past, but it is not widespread enough to cause a dent in the infection or to alleviate the stress on the healthcare system. The effect exists but the data shows it does not matter.

> The effect exists but the data shows it does not matter. You may have been right at a time where almost nobody had a previous infection. However, estimates by reputable sources https://covidestim.org/us show that a large percentage of people have been infected by covid at least once. The data are by state, I see ~75% for MA, 80% for CA and NY, and you can pick your favorite state. At this point it is more correct t…

If the vaccine does not matter, why do we still see such a prevalence of unvaccinated people among patients Who required hospitalization?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#808

Post by PickledHotdog »

bonzini wrote: post #614
nu11ptr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…

>died due to cancer/car accident

The WHO definition of a covid death means that they can only be counted as covid deaths if there's a clinical link between cause of death and covid.

Ergo, cancer and car accident victims with covid wouldn't be counted.

I suppose it depends on how your country defines it and if it follows WHO guidelines

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#809

Post by xdennis »

sudosysgen wrote: post #10

Some people are saying that this is notable because Pfizer has a financial incentive to keep vaccine mandates. That is not true. Pfizer is going to be making a lot more money from their COVID treatments than from the vaccine.

In both cases Pfizer makes money.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#810

Post by caditinpiscinam »

vanusa wrote: post #365
theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. So is letting people die from otherwise treatable injuries and infections so someone else can enjoy their "freedom" to ... you know what I'm driving at.

I think it's less about freedoms and more about rights

Is it a person's right to fly on an airplane without wearing a mask? I'd don't think so

Is it a person's right to decide what medicines they take? I'd say yes, definitely

You can take away freedoms in the interest of others, but not rights, in my opinion. The policies I've seen are pretty fuzzy on this distinction

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