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The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

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Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#271

Post by BLanen »

yanmaani wrote: post #266
throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

Tor seems to do okay in Russia. Maybe not stellar, but in practice, it seems to work fine. Same for Signal and all this other stuff.

Just because a system(tor) exists doesn't means its existence has any real effect.

The existence of Tor in the state of Russia and Russia being the Authoritarian state that it is supports the case.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#272

Post by rvense »

3pt14159 wrote: post #255
rvense wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No we aren't. In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade. Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it…

Which services specifically? This is an international forum. I want specific examples and I don't think that's too much of an ask.

The worst example I've seen personally was the pension plan provider at my current job. They required an app to sign up and manage everything. They don't have a web site and I was the first person to ask about it.

Parking in many places requires an app from an app store.

There's lots of small community things, local classifieds etc., that exist in niche things that only have an app. Like I said, trivial things, but they add up to everyday life becoming harder.

As for legal requirement: the government single sign-on that is used to interact with all government services and is also mandated for many important things like banks, insurance etc., is app-centric, though not app-only. They used to send one-time pads on cardboard but recently switch to electronic tokens. All government ID (for public health etc.) is also moving to apps. You can still get plastic cards, of course.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#273

Post by throwawaygh »

foxfluff wrote: post #263
throwawaygh wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle. Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.

I have a hunch it depends heavily on your location. I have never seen a check in my life, and I have never heard of anyone I know using them. I wouldn't be able to say whether such a thing even exists here. Cash is still a thing but not universally accepted; not having a credit or debit card would be a major inconvenience. Banks can be hard to access because they've reduced offices and opening hours. You don't go the…

Fascinating. Where do you live?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#274

Post by AtlasBarfed »

rvense wrote: post #194
3pt14159 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we aren't. I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that. As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph. Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American dem…

> No we aren't. In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade. Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it…

- cars will certainly soon have the state's "black box" in them

- Your ID card already has RFID, and it will only get more powerful

- credit, payment, banking, passports, air travel ... all getting centralized.

- Go ahead and fallback to paper, that just means the paper is entered into a computer when you hand it in and they "review" it. What will probably happen is that the all-paper route will become FAR MORE ONEROUS will submitting to facial recognition, DNA samples, and the like to back-verify your identity, higher fees, wait times, until you submit to practical day-to-day needing a on-body computer device like a phone.

- all democracies know laziness is the key to functionally subverting rights, it's only going to get worse.

- even if you don't submit, all they people you know WILL, and the government can track you by tracking the people you know. So I guess, no friends for you.

Now, for every place I said government, cross that out and put in "multinational corporation that is a monopoly or cartel in all its markets"... and it's all there, turnkey, same policies, but even less legal / constitutional protection.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#275

Post by rgrieselhuber »

mdp2021 wrote: post #244
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of banks out there.

None of the banks in the country where a friend of mine lives offer the services he demands: he is planning to live the country. Many in this branch of discussion seem to be measuring their possibilities against a current situation in their area - while in some other regions the situation is worse to desperate - and they are not seeing a trend.

Definitely agree with the trend risks. The question is how to reverse it?

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#276

Post by Kim_Bruning »

If you don't collect the data in the first place, a government can't come along and appropriate the treasure trove you just created.

Sure governments can make laws, but most of the laws are far behind what companies are already collecting voluntarily it would seem.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#277

Post by mdp2021 »

warning26 wrote: post #90
heyitsguay wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I initially missed your sarcasm but yes, truly, this is the worst outcome. What’s next, requiring driving passports to operate a vehicle? Identity passports to enter a foreign country? When will the madness end?? (/s)

> When will the madness end

Madness ends with discrimination. The importance of a licence to operating machinery dangerous for the nearby only after validation is clear-cut; that of limiting access to damaging intoxicants to weak decisors with unmyelinated brains is clear-cut; other contexts are not.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#278

Post by foxfluff »

throwawaygh wrote: post #273
foxfluff wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch it depends heavily on your location. I have never seen a check in my life, and I have never heard of anyone I know using them. I wouldn't be able to say whether such a thing even exists here. Cash is still a thing but not universally accepted; not having a credit or debit card would be a major inconvenience. Banks can be hard to access because they've reduced offices and opening hours. You don't go the…

Fascinating. Where do you live?

Finland.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#279

Post by ecdouvhr »

throwawaygh wrote: post #273
foxfluff wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch it depends heavily on your location. I have never seen a check in my life, and I have never heard of anyone I know using them. I wouldn't be able to say whether such a thing even exists here. Cash is still a thing but not universally accepted; not having a credit or debit card would be a major inconvenience. Banks can be hard to access because they've reduced offices and opening hours. You don't go the…

Fascinating. Where do you live?

Like the sibling commenter, I'm from Finland. The same applies to most of the Nordics though; I doubt my kids will ever see a check. People simply don't use them and cashing one would probably be quite difficult (not to mention expensive).

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#280

Post by ecdouvhr »

jjav wrote: post #261
ecdouvhr wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I pay all my bills with checks. Utilities, rentals, mortgages, taxes, everything. Why not? In stores I mostly use cash, except for larger purchases where it becomes inconvenient. Those go to the credit card which I'll then pay with a check.

I don't think there are any businesses here who'd accept a check. Banks would probably do it for a fee, or at least require you deposit the money to your account.

Bills here are paid with bank transfer. It doesn't have to be done though online banking, but doing so is obviously easier.

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