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The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

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Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#261

Post by jjav »

ecdouvhr wrote: post #250
bentcorner wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a middle ground here that has existed for a long time. Mail hand-written cheques for your bills, deposit your paystub into your bank account, withdraw cash on a periodic basis for daily spending. You don't even need to use a banking card for any of this. I haven't been to a store that has refused cash and have never been required to use a banking app.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I pay all my bills with checks. Utilities, rentals, mortgages, taxes, everything. Why not?

In stores I mostly use cash, except for larger purchases where it becomes inconvenient. Those go to the credit card which I'll then pay with a check.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#262

Post by matthewdgreen »

throwawaygh wrote: post #248
matthewdgreen wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am the author of the original tweet, so allow me to push back on this point of view. Technology people are not the solution to this problem, we are the problem. And we really need to stop being the problem. There have been authoritarian governments before, and still are all over the world: but they've never had access to technology anywhere near as powerful as what we have today, e.g., ubiquitous user location or u…

Okay, so we delete existing repositories and stop collecting that data for now. I'm in full agreement. I just don't see how developing new systems is any sort of solution. > It's possible that authoritarian regimes are very efficient and will somehow force companies to build insecure systems that can be abused The genie is out of the bottle. Issuing an edict to "do things like you did them in 2022" doesn't exactly re…

> It's also a bit presumptuous to assume that a future authoritarian regime wouldn't have expert technologists at their disposal...

I think your thinking here is too binary. Clearly there exist possible futures where authoritarian governments are hyper-efficient and have brilliant technologists advising them. In those futures we're clearly doomed and thus we might as well give up now. The thing is, those futures are not inevitable. There are also many (IMHO more realistic) futures where governments are messy and inefficient (like they are today), where their authority is blunted by organizational and jurisdictional issues (as it is today), where their technologists are not hyper-competent (believe me, as they are today.)

In those worlds there is a huge difference between a scenario where the full weight of FAANGM's resources is pushing to build massive data repositories, and one where they've taken firm technological steps to limit it. We are in the first world and we should be in the second one.

> Issuing an edict to "do things like you did them in 2022" doesn't exactly require genius-level administrative talent...

I think that this will actually be more difficult than you think: this is why governments are spending ~millions right now to slow down the deployment of new encryption technology [1]. But stop worrying about 2022: what you should be worried about is 2036. Look at what we've done to privacy since 2007 -- the year the first iPhone launched. Now imagine someone from ~14 years in the future coming back to to explain what Silicon Valley has done with even better technology like wearables and powerful ML tooling. When you're in a hole, the most important step is to stop digging.

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/01/uk-paid-724000-creepy-...

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#263

Post by foxfluff »

throwawaygh wrote: post #253
ecdouvhr wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle. Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.

I have a hunch it depends heavily on your location. I have never seen a check in my life, and I have never heard of anyone I know using them. I wouldn't be able to say whether such a thing even exists here. Cash is still a thing but not universally accepted; not having a credit or debit card would be a major inconvenience. Banks can be hard to access because they've reduced offices and opening hours. You don't go there unless you really have to.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#264

Post by toss1 »

vanusa wrote: post #204
toss1 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't require you buy the device - they merely require apps that run on the device to do certain necessary things, such as drive a motor vehicle, enter certain buildings, use public transportation, etc. The migration to "Oh we now have mobile enabled -- X" is already happening, with "X" being boarding pass, driver's license, building pass, payment method, etc. First, it's a convenience, then it becomes a require…

Since when was an app required to drive a car? Certain new models, maybe. Certain rental cars, maybe. But in the general case? And where in the world is one required to run an app to use public transportation? I just don't find this factual distortion from "could happen, might happen" to "is in the process of happening right now" to be very helpful.

As I wrote, it is not required YET.

>>~First a convenience, then a requirement.

It is starting at this stage as a convenient option [0][1]. The stage to be concerned about is when it becomes ubiquitious, then default, then mandatory. Might not be soon, but it is a large round rock rolling downhill. Might be stoppable, but that's usually the default progression.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_license [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/your-future-drivers-license-could-...

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#265

Post by mdp2021 »

Beltalowda wrote: post #115
warning26 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Literally everywhere that requires a vax card accepts paper versions too

My concern is more with people in somewhat unusual circumstances who get "lost in the bureaucracy". I am fully vaccinated, but unable to get a QR code – digital or paper version. My circumstances are somewhat unusual: I moved back to the Netherlands after a few years abroad (I am a Dutch citizen), and due to the difficult rental market and not having a job (yet) I've been forced to stay in temporary accommodations. I…

You are not highlighting it enough:

-- you are vaccinated;

-- we could assume you received papers at the vaccination;

-- said vaccination certificates are insufficient and you seem to require a different, related, complex document, which basically states the same of your vaccination certificate.

Though one understands the use of certificates as passes could boost practice for falsification of simpler certificates, the practice as described still seems absurd.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#266

Post by yanmaani »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

Tor seems to do okay in Russia. Maybe not stellar, but in practice, it seems to work fine. Same for Signal and all this other stuff.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#267

Post by AtlasBarfed »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

Interesting thought, another reason to get to space.

With the internet and modern IT tools, authoritarian control over the populace is approaching turnkey. Well, it is, we just haven't had a strongman yet in the US (that wasn't an idiot).

The only defense is the speed of light. A question: at what amount of transit time from "the authority" to "the colony" does total information control fall apart? 1 light-minute? 1 light-hour? 1 light-day?

Nevertheless, space will be a whole new set of rules. The "authority" will be on Earth, and won't be able to think in terms of "space".

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#268

Post by BLanen »

throwawaygh wrote: post #164

Surveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with cl…

Thank you for your comment.

This is much needed on this website of cypherpunk idealism.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#269

Post by distances »

throwawaygh wrote: post #234
distances wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying bills in a physical branch will get expensive fast, at least here every bank that even allows that will take 3-10€ per bill.

Interesting; I wasn't aware. In the US it's still very normal (and free) to deposit/withdraw cash at physical branches.

I think I haven't deposited since I last emptied my piggy bank as a kid, probably in the early 90s. And I've actually never in my life withdrawn over the counter, I was given an ATM only card sometime when I was deemed old enough to use it.

Re: The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out

#270

Post by vanusa »

toss1 wrote: post #264
vanusa wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when was an app required to drive a car? Certain new models, maybe. Certain rental cars, maybe. But in the general case? And where in the world is one required to run an app to use public transportation? I just don't find this factual distortion from "could happen, might happen" to "is in the process of happening right now" to be very helpful.

As I wrote, it is not required YET . >>~First a convenience, then a requirement. It is starting at this stage as a convenient option [0][1]. The stage to be concerned about is when it becomes ubiquitious, then default, then mandatory. Might not be soon, but it is a large round rock rolling downhill. Might be stoppable, but that's usually the default progression. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_driver%27s_lic…

Your language said "they require [that you run] apps" -- in the present, not future tense.
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