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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#411

Post by WalterBright »

dane-pgp wrote: post #365
WalterBright wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're seriously underestimating the rate of violence against kings. They didn't live in ruinously expensive, heavily fortified castles for nothing. They endured constant plots against them, from everyone, and to misjudge those threats meant death.

That would be an interesting study, actually, to see what percentage of medieval kings died of old age (and not in their successor's dungeon). As a first order approximation, I've looked at the Wikipedia article "List of monarchs of the British Isles by cause of death"[0] (which covers more than just the medieval period), and counted this summary: Natural causes: 60 In battle: 15 Murdered, assassinated, executed: 17…

Although I was sure that was true, it's nice to have a solid reference. Thanks!

There's also the wannabes (like princes) who were killed to prevent their ascension to the throne.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#412

Post by scollet »

WalterBright wrote: post #401
southerntofu wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put them in a drug rehab facility. Sure why not, but what after that? If you think helping them overcome addiction then throwing them back out on the streets is gonna have any positive effects, i can say with 99% confidence you haven't spent more than a day being homeless.

Once they're dried out, they'll be able to get a job. Jobs are currently going begging. The homeless who aren't addicts or alcoholics tend to do well with programs to help them back on their feet. The former, nope.

This isn't a video game or a d&d session.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#413

Post by chaostheory »

WalterBright wrote: post #400
chaostheory wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you’re partially right that chronic homelessness is related to drug abuse, most of them are mentally ill. Unfortunately due to legal changes in the 1980’s, you can no longer help the mentally ill unless they provide consent. The end result is they stay homeless, while the other 80% of the homeless end up recovering in less than a year.

Mental illness is indeed a cause of some of the homelessness. But this isn't a poverty down-on-their-luck problem, it's a mental illness problem.

Yes, if I wasn’t clear enough that was my point with chronic homelessness, unless you meant to respond to someone else.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#414

Post by FuWeiShi »

silverberry wrote: post #405
kelseyfrog wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be free of the spectacle of the modern world, what a delicious treat!

I don't think anybody is stopping you from living like a hermit in a cabin in the woods, right? But still, you don't.

Because human existence, and happiness, presupposes a social existence for the vast majority of humans.

Hermit in the woods is an erroneous analogy to primitive tribes.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#415

Post by roenxi »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #373
roenxi wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I have thought carefully about my lifestyle and, like pretty much everyone, decided that if I have the option of being grid-connected I will take it. It is an open-and-shut case. If people are given a choice, it would be a good day when 1 in 100 would choose to live a life in absolute poverty. If these hypothetical secluded tribes had a choice, they would say the equivalent of "wow, antibiotics! Reliable food…

Are there any downsides of being connected you can think of?

Lots, obviously. It isn't utopia. But not being connected would make you impoverished. Like how monks might disconnect by taking a so-called vow of poverty.

And people who voluntarily do that? Vanishingly rare.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#416

Post by FuWeiShi »

silverberry wrote: post #410
ricardobeat wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is no argument. Not only you're again dismissing it based on opinion alone, now I'm being personally judged for it... I'm not going down that line. Practically every research study on happiness associates it with health, family, culture, friends, purpose, religion. Comfort, physical goods, wealth are always at the bottom. Living in simple conditions doesn't mean forfeiting health or basic sanitation. The questio…

First of all, I'm not judging you, where did I? I'm arguing against your ideas, which are harmful. Second, how am I basing anything on opinion alone? I never mentioned modern day commodities or technologies, you are arguing against things I've never said, and are completely omitting my main points. According to your own arguments and words, do "tribes living off-grid" have "a home, clean water, a surplus of food, fri…

There's a problem in your assumptions though.

Modern examples of tribal living are after the vast majority of fertile lands have been colonized by "civilization".

Imagine judging the wealth of a place like America by its Indian reservations.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#417

Post by rhcom2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #408
rhcom2 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't evidence for what you asserted. Just evidence that for those people it might be worse somewhere else.

> might be Maybe you should do them a service and inform them that America is a hell-hole?

I just pushed back on a unsupported statement, not sure where you got "hell-hole" from. God forbid we admit America isn't the greatest country on earth in everything.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#418

Post by akiselev »

FuWeiShi wrote: post #416
silverberry wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I'm not judging you, where did I? I'm arguing against your ideas, which are harmful. Second, how am I basing anything on opinion alone? I never mentioned modern day commodities or technologies, you are arguing against things I've never said, and are completely omitting my main points. According to your own arguments and words, do "tribes living off-grid" have "a home, clean water, a surplus of food, fri…

There's a problem in your assumptions though. Modern examples of tribal living are after the vast majority of fertile lands have been colonized by "civilization". Imagine judging the wealth of a place like America by its Indian reservations.

The (vast?) majority of pre-industrial tribes I remember studying in anthropology live in very fertile areas like the Amazon, Pacific islands, and the mountainous jungles of central Africa or Papua New Guinea. These areas can support small scale agriculture but for various reasons are impractical to exploit economically.

Anthropologists have gone to great lengths to study tribes that have had little to no interaction with the outside world so our understanding of their quality of life isn't as biased as you'd think.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#419

Post by vecinu »

guerrilla wrote: post #387
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a survey that was done in Seattle about of homeless were from out of the county or not, and the data collected found most of them squad they were housed in pioneer square before becoming homeless. Anyone who knows Seattle would find that very fishy (it would be like most homeless in LA saying they were housed in skid row). Surveys in the homeless community are extremely unreliable, but I guess that…

You should check out the interviews, hear it directly from the source.

I sympathize with the OP, the source is unreliable.

In a similar vain, a lot of US residents do not believe the numbers China is pumping out in regards to COVID-19, just another example of how the source can be unreliable.

Being homeless changes your attitude and perspective on life. It's unlikely these people can be truly honest with outsiders, especially strangers because then they don't receive any aid or help.

Personally, I can't take those interviews as a gospel of truth because I don't believe the authors.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#420

Post by nemothekid »

WalterBright wrote: post #225
nemothekid wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very simplistic view of addiction; High functioning addiction is the norm - Purdue made billions creating them. I'm sure - at your workplace in a major city like SF or NY you have worked with people addicted to Benzos, Cocaine, or Alcohol. Most of them will tell you they can "quit any time" (they can't), but are still capable of taking a shower and showing up to work. > Treating a homeless drug addict as a…

> How do you rehab someone who does not have stable shelter? Put them in a drug rehab facility. It's still not an economic problem, it's a drug addiction problem.

>Put them in a drug rehab facility.

So give them housing? Please analyze what you are saying. What is a drug rehab facility if not housing with nurses on staff?

What I'm asking you to consider is that housing first policies are cheaper to scale and have shown to work. If people's basic needs are met with safety and dignity they are less likely to run away to drugs and alcohol.

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