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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#111

Post by AnimalMuppet »

coldtea wrote: post #100
chrisco255 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have access to all the world's information. They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. They can push a button on their phone to have gourmet food delivered to their house in under an hour. They can press another button on their phone to fetch a personal driver that will deliver them to any destination. They can choose to drive themselves, of course, and can travel hundr…

> They have access to all the world's information. So? The Kings had access to much more information than they cared about already. > They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. A big chunk can't even afford to take a couple of sick days off, lest they be fired, or can't afford to retire and work in their late 60s and 70s in shitty jobs like a Walmart greeter - much less trav…

Henry VIII didn't die from violence. He died from (probably) complications of obesity at 55. I'd rather be some random middle-class female from Ohio than one of Henry's wives, though.

In fact, I'd rather be some random middle-class female from Ohio than any female in the Middle Ages, because of the dangers of childbirth back then.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#112

Post by hkt »

andi999 wrote: post #5
throwthere wrote: post #3

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

Plus globalisation. What else should it be?

Well, China has eradicated extreme poverty by means of communism. So that appears to be an option too.

I'd be interested to see a relatively detached, objective analysis on the speed and extent to which poverty is alleviated by different social policies. There's some clear variation there that deserves analysis.

Edit: misread the post I replied to, "could" as "should".

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#113

Post by WalterBright »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #73
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

There's quite a broad range of "poor" in America. At least medieval kings never ran out of food, which people in food deserts do regularly. And medieval kings would have been quite secure, compared to the extreme violence that makes up daily life in many of America's urban poor communities, which are some of the most dangerous in the world. I'm thankful that I've gotten to live in Northwest DC, South Chicago, West Ba…

I think you're seriously underestimating the rate of violence against kings.

They didn't live in ruinously expensive, heavily fortified castles for nothing.

They endured constant plots against them, from everyone, and to misjudge those threats meant death.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#114

Post by goodpoint »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

And work two jobs and go bankrupt and die of some treatable disease? I'd rather be poor in any european country or Korea or Japan.

Besides, that's a pretty cheeky comparison.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#115

Post by slibhb »

coldtea wrote: post #102
slibhb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Poverty" (the word) is relative and has a cultural meaning. But it's not clear that we should care about those components of the word/concept. If the poorest person in the world has a car, a home, food, and water, are they poor just because other people have much more? Even if they are, does it really matter? We find poverty viscerally disturbing because it comes with privation. If we get to a point where that is no…

> If the poorest person in the world has a car, a home, food, and water, are they poor just because other people have much more? Yes. And we could ask the same for things the poorest medieval peasant had, that a caveman didn't. Would you say the medieval peasant wasn't poor? > Even if they are, does it really matter? Yes. We're social animals. Here's another way to look at it. Would it be ok if the poorest black pers…

Peasants and cro-magnons both faced privation so I would call them poor without reservation. My argument is that the concept of poverty would need to be revised if we succeed at ending privation.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#116

Post by goodpoint »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #83
beepbooptheory wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a little funny to say an essentially communist society has a scarcity of labor... It's like yes, that's kinda the point! They often note on the show itself that it is in fact replicator tech itself that sealed the deal for their era of post-scarcity, so yeah, that would imply some kind of scarcity in handmade goods. I think when people generally talk about "post-scarcity" it isn't that literally everything…

By that definition we already live in a post-scarcity economy. Food & housing are extremely plentiful in the US. We consume over 3600 calories per person, and waste a similar amount. Livestock eat over 10,000 calories per person. We have over 800 square feet of living space per capita.

> housing are extremely plentiful

...and therefore extremely cheap? Instead it's extremely expensive and therefore exclusionary. So it is healthcare.

Polls clearly show that younger generations feel very unsure about their work, their ability to save, buy a home end even retire and have a pension. The complete opposite of post-scarcity.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#117

Post by salemh »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #54
gitfan86 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a hard pill for society to swallow. On the poor end people legitimately feel like they are not well off because they have so much less than many others. On the high end, rich people don't like the idea that 200 years from now they will be seen as relatively poor.

Could unpack that second part some more? I never heard of that line of thought.

No post body was provided.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#118

Post by BorisTheBrave »

coldtea wrote: post #100
chrisco255 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have access to all the world's information. They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. They can push a button on their phone to have gourmet food delivered to their house in under an hour. They can press another button on their phone to fetch a personal driver that will deliver them to any destination. They can choose to drive themselves, of course, and can travel hundr…

> They have access to all the world's information. So? The Kings had access to much more information than they cared about already. > They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. A big chunk can't even afford to take a couple of sick days off, lest they be fired, or can't afford to retire and work in their late 60s and 70s in shitty jobs like a Walmart greeter - much less trav…

I don't think you've really thought about how awful the middle ages are.

> The Kings had access to much more information than they cared about already.

Royals used to have portraits painted and transported just so they could get an idea who the person their arranged marriage with actually looked like. Bet they'd like Facebook.

Louis XIV commissioned a more accurate map of france. It took 4 generations to make.

The first semaphore was so valuable it was initially reserved just for government use.

Oops, no wait, these are all post-medieval by a few centuries! Things were even worse before.

> The King could do the same, all day, every day, with personal chefs familiar with their preferences, and without fear for the expenses...

The king would be stuck with local food, in season only. At least he'd probably be able to afford some foreign spices. And they probably couldn't get food in an hour, due to the less efficient kitchens of the time, and not having thousands of restaurants already on standby to serve every kind of meal.

> Oh, how Kings would be jealous of the magic of Uber...

That device that travels twice as fast as a horse for hours without break, and at more comfort? I think so.

> As for Kings who didn't die in guillotine

England has never had a king live past 81. It's even worse if you look at medieval kings. US Life Expectancy is ~79. Even ignoring life expectancy, pretty much all illness was vastly more unpleasant. As a king, you'd likely have gout (called the "disease of kings") or an StD.

> Who wants to be a middle class schmuck

The purpose of the exercise is to determine who is poorer in terms of what is available to them. Kings are no doubt more important and powerful, but can we agree that's besides the point? I for one, would take the quality of life of said schmuck.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#119

Post by nickpp »

goodpoint wrote: post #114
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings. And work two jobs and go bankrupt and die of some treatable disease? I'd rather be poor in any european country or Korea or Japan. Besides, that's a pretty cheeky comparison.

> I'd rather be poor in any european country

Bulgaria welcomes you

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#120

Post by ryan93 »

InitialLastName wrote: post #89
ryan93 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments should have instituted a lot more regulations a thousand years ago to eliminate poverty.

You joke, but there's no denying that the last millennium's trend of increasing government centralization, stability, control over the use of violence, and enforcement of property rights (in whatever systematic form they take) has been a factor in this reduction in poverty levels. Nothing is quite as good at causing desperate poverty cycles as most of your local infrastructure getting regularly forcibly undeveloped i…

I agree of course. Just being a little facetious.
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