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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#21
post #18

It’s incredible how wording can be confusing to different readers. The HN title of this post is currently “the end of poverty has just begun” which made me think “just” = “recently”. So I thought the article would be about something that has indicated that the rate of poverty reduction has increased. The URL says “history-of-poverty-has-just-begun” which made me think this is an article about historiography of povert…

I fully agree with you but I'd suggest simply adding the word "only" before "just" in the title, I think that's missing.

I.e.: "The end of poverty has only just begun"

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#22
Dr. Jason Hickel has—I think—a pretty fair criticism of these graphs [1], that I'll try to summarize here:

1. Treating "poverty" as a binary "yes/no" thing, where having > $1.90/day suddenly alleviates you from poverty seems like a bit of a stretch. $1.90/day is probably way too low a number to cover adequate nutrition, shelter, and basic human needs.

2. While the percentage of people in poverty by this measure has decreased, the total number of people is probably more important. And that number has actually increased in the past 40 years.

3. They didn't start collecting these numbers since 1981. All numbers prior to 1981 are highly dubious.

4. It ignores the effects of colonialism. Many people went from living lives with little need for money to one totally dependent on it. Enclosure of what once were public resources has eliminated many non-monetary forms of wealth these people once had.

5. Related to 4, it's not clear that going from a pre-monetary system to a much more capitalist system where money is necessary for virtually everything is an improvement. Especially when that transition was brought about by the threat of violence.

6. Virtually all of this reduction in extreme poverty occurred in China, which makes the notion that this was a triumph of capitalism / neoliberalism kind of silly.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/29/bill-g...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#24
It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1].

When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to enormous social tensions within whole societies. So while we should be celebrating the decline in poverty, we are somewhat also left with a sour taste about the side effects that occur.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34890015-factfulness

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#25

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

Capitalism is one tool in the economic toolkit. Capitalism isn't the only economic system, or even the only free-market economic system, just a very popular one. I wouldn't say a hammer builds a house, even if it is very useful. If poverty will be eliminated, my first guess is that humans will ultimately be the ones to do it.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#27

Are we transitioning to post-scarcity economy?

No, and we're nowhere near post-scarcity. We're able to foresee the end of some forms of scarcity, like basic food insecurity, but there's still no reasonable expectation that the economy becomes post scarcity in any way shape or form within the next 100 years.

Not to be a doomsday troll, but climate change seems to throw a big question mark in terms of basic food security especially non-industrialized.

See Afghanistan drought right now. I'm sure we can solve those problems with enough money and tech, but we could do that right now and feed millions but we choose not too.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#28
post #19

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

Definitely not. It's the regulation of capitalism that is driving this. This is why the countries where capitalism is most heavily regulated (nordic countries, some european countries) are cited throughout the article. Capitalism on its own with no regulation just devolves into corporate dystopia and corruption because the short term path of least resistance is always taken. When we experience progress it's because o…

Governments should have instituted a lot more regulations a thousand years ago to eliminate poverty.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#29

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

I will answer your question with another leading question: What do you think created poverty in the first place?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#30
post #2

While there's clearly a lot in the whole $1/day thing, it's not as clear cut. If you live in Sweden on $30 a day and pay $900 a month in rent, that leaves you with just 31 cents a day. Meanwhile if you live in India on $5 a day and pay $50 a month in rent you'd have $3.35 a day left over, and $3 in rural india goes a lot further than $3 in Sweden. Those are of course extreme examples, and the levels of poverty in pla…

They claim to have adjusted the values for the price differences between countries. Although I'm not sure if rent was included in that adjustment.

If they used the OECD's PPP, which they probably did, it includes rent.
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