Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#361

Post by zrail » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #324

skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

There are operations research PhD's who use decades of aggregate demand data in dynamic pricing algorithms for the purpose of revenue and queue management in perishable services, e.g. software for pricing of airline seats, rental cars and hotel rooms. In countries with universal healthcare, price cannot be used for queue management, but the US isn't one of those countries. Did any hospital use queue management softwa…

> Did any hospital use queue management software to adjust pricing as a mechanism for demand throttling, due to limited capacity in 2020-2021

No one shops for healthcare in the US based on price, for three reasons. First, prices are unknowable in advance. Second, if you have insurance the insurance will fulfill their end of the bargain if you need to be admitted (i.e. they will pay as agreed upon in the insurance contract). Third, emergency rooms in the US are required by law to stabilize any emergent patient that walks in the door, which means anyone can go to any ER anywhere and get treatment.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#362

Post by Tade0 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

skillpass wrote: post #303

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

A few of my friends are doctors. When it hits, it's hell. Here in Poland 300h of work during the month the infections are at their peak is not unheard of.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#363

Post by sib301 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

skillpass wrote: post #303

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

Dude go to a hospital in a populated area during this surge. My wife sat in the waiting room for 3 hours with SEVERE abdominal pain, DURING A PREGNANCY and was unable to be seen. We went home. If she’d had an ectopic pregnancy, she would probably not be here anymore.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#364

Post by x3n0ph3n3 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

Especially since hospital capacity is induced scarcity due to government regulation and the AMA.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#365

Post by vanusa » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society.

So is letting people die from otherwise treatable injuries and infections so someone else can enjoy their "freedom" to ... you know what I'm driving at.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#366

Post by e40 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

I hate this casting of the issue as "freedom". It's absurd.

My "freedom" to live because I have a medical issue but cannot get treatment will be severely impacted if hospitals are overrun with patients and worn out workers.

See, we can both play the "freedom" game.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#367

Post by enchiridion » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #348

theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

I’d like to know that if I have a heart attack or get hit by a bus then I’ll have access to top quality healthcare —- not burnt out understaffed hospitals. Sharing limited resources is a major role of the government, and managing hospital capacity seems to fall under “promote general welfare” to me. My $0.02

It definitely is, but they’re addressing it from the wrong end.

If the pandemic could be fixed by the government managing individual behavior we’d be done with it by now.

Instead the government should be focused on expanding highly covid specific care capacity. That is by far a better way to spend the covid relief money than distributing it to sustain a nebulous lockdown.

As far as I understand from talking with doctors, at no time within the last year have hospitals been at maximum emergency covid capacity, as in hospital beds in the hall ways, cafeteria, etc. This tells me that we are close to the amount of beds we need, and it would be feasible to build out additional capacity quickly, relieve the strain, and get back to normal.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#368

Post by mlyle » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #348

theandrewbailey wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions. Having anyone's freedoms dependent on available hospital capacity is a terrible way to run a society. Note that these freedoms were debated and won in an era where medicine wa…

I’d like to know that if I have a heart attack or get hit by a bus then I’ll have access to top quality healthcare —- not burnt out understaffed hospitals. Sharing limited resources is a major role of the government, and managing hospital capacity seems to fall under “promote general welfare” to me. My $0.02

> Sharing limited resources is a major role of the government, and managing hospital capacity seems to fall under “promote general welfare” to me.

Sure. It's a pretty delicate balance between individual liberties and preventing bad collective outcomes, though.

If you lock down 340 million people for a week-- maybe the net effect is stealing 3.5 days of life's "enjoyment" or "quality" from each. That's 3.3 million years of quality life taken.

You need to save 20 years of quality life for 165,000 people to break even. In the first wave we probably exceeded that benefit, but it's highly doubtful any subsequent time passes that bar.

And, IMO, if there's ever anything close to a "tie", you need to favor individual liberty.

Maybe making people mask "costs" 0.2 days per week-- much smaller cost, but also a smaller effect. I think it's still justified, but only barely... It won't be soon.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#369

Post by kbelder » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #186

Izkata wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I am done caring about this class of people. And their response will be "Finally! This is all we've wanted this entire time!" I don't think most here understand just how much "this class of people" value freedom over safety.

Considering the number of videos I've seen with people yelling at masked people, I'd say that they don't care about freedom at all (since apparently people shouldn't be free to wear masks whenever they want).

You don't think that happens the other way around as well? There's obnoxious morons on both sides of this debate.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#370

Post by mint2 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

>” At this point if an adult in the US is unvaccinated it is (1) almost certainly by choice (there are some people who cannot get it for medical reasons but they make up only a very tiny fraction of the unvaccinated), and (2) it is very unlikely that any evidence or logical arguments will chance their minds.”

This typical line of thought ignores a huge issue. Vaccine mandates don’t help per se, but it’s an issue that is pretty bad to just gloss over.

Articles like this really need to describe some sort of policy or plan for the 7 million or so immunocompromised people in America.

Like at least mention them and advocate something. Don’t just gloss over 7 million people. Propose something like Priority access to the new Pfizer pills and additional assistance with other things to avoid high risk activities.